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TBayXXXVII

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#135 : November 30, 2012, 02:16:10 PM

2010 was a great season by Freeman. I dont care who he was playing against. This is the nfl. There are no easy games at this level. I know you dont like Freeman but 2010 was a very good season for him. 25tds and 6 int is no joke for a guy in his second season, first as a starter.

We differ on that.  In the past, that has been true, but over the last 5 years... it's not.  Since the rule changes the NFL has made, there are definitely the "Haves" and "Have Nots".  If you "Have" good QB play, you win.  If you "Have Not" good QB play, you lose.

Brady and Peyton combined have 1 single ring in the last 8 years.
Ryan and Brees pretty much played the same shedule as Freeman in 2010, still #5 had the best QBR of the 3. When Freeman won in big fashion @SEA, Brees saw on of the biggest upsets in PO history a few weeks later.
If Freeman is not a good QB, why he is able to win games, more than the 'future HOFer' M Stafford? Somewhere you logic fails. Why not compare Freeman to Eli, Eli has stretches of suckkiness aswell, even this season. If you are so concerned about long time, why overvalue those 2 hot streaks in the POs, just once he made POs without a few lucky breaks/tie breakers. Why is Rivers unable to get the #1 offense and defense to the POs?

"Brady and Peyton combined have 1 single ring in the last 8 years".  No idea what your point is, but that's for the common knowledge.

In 2010, Brees and Ryan went to the playoffs... Freeman didn't.  Nuf said.

Freeman isn't a bad QB... he isn't a good QB, he's right in the middle I think.  There are about 12-15 QB's I'd take over him... about 12-15 I choose him over.  That makes him middle of the road.  As a starter he's 23-28, slightly less than average... take out the rookie season and he's 20-22.  That again, make him middle of the road.  He's been consistently able to beat the bad teams and has very few (4 to be exact... 3 of which are in division), wins against good teams.  Let's say the Bucs win in Atlanta at the end of the season.  If Minnesota ends up with a winning record, Josh Freeman will have approximately 26 wins... 20 of them against teams with a losing record.  Not counting this season, he's 5-20 against teams with a .500 or better.  At some point you have to have long term success against the better teams.

Who claim's that Stafford is a future hall of famer?  I think he's good... not yet great.  He may be, he may not be.  At this point in time, I'd be ok with him as my QB for the next 5 years.  I wouldn't be Aaron Rodgers comfortable, but I'd be ok.

Eli steps up in big games and has done so over and over.  Freeman has never had that opportunity.  It's unfair to hold Freeman up to that standard, so I don't.  If you want to, then this is the only place you can peddle that crap.  Try talking to a non-Bucs fan and throw some crap out there that Freeman is as good as Eli and watch how everyone on the planet laughs at you.

As far as Rivers goes, in 2010... I blame Norv Turner.  He's just bad.  Rivers' abilities is the only reason that team has won games in the past and why Turner still has a job.  I think both he and AJ Smith get fired this offseason.

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#136 : November 30, 2012, 02:53:45 PM

2010 was a great season by Freeman. I dont care who he was playing against. This is the nfl. There are no easy games at this level. I know you dont like Freeman but 2010 was a very good season for him. 25tds and 6 int is no joke for a guy in his second season, first as a starter.

We differ on that.  In the past, that has been true, but over the last 5 years... it's not.  Since the rule changes the NFL has made, there are definitely the "Haves" and "Have Nots".  If you "Have" good QB play, you win.  If you "Have Not" good QB play, you lose.

So your saying Alex Smith is the reason they're winning in San Francisco?

He just got benched for a rookie. That can't be right. Alex Smith lead the 49ers to a 6-2 record. Those wins were all on him, he did it, nothing else REALLY matters but the QB. A win is because the QB won it, a loss is because the QB lost it, right? You can't really believe that?
: November 30, 2012, 02:56:05 PM BucNY

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#137 : November 30, 2012, 02:54:34 PM

2010 was a great season by Freeman. I dont care who he was playing against. This is the nfl. There are no easy games at this level. I know you dont like Freeman but 2010 was a very good season for him. 25tds and 6 int is no joke for a guy in his second season, first as a starter.

We differ on that.  In the past, that has been true, but over the last 5 years... it's not.  Since the rule changes the NFL has made, there are definitely the "Haves" and "Have Nots".  If you "Have" good QB play, you win.  If you "Have Not" good QB play, you lose.

Brady and Peyton combined have 1 single ring in the last 8 years.
Ryan and Brees pretty much played the same shedule as Freeman in 2010, still #5 had the best QBR of the 3. When Freeman won in big fashion @SEA, Brees saw on of the biggest upsets in PO history a few weeks later.
If Freeman is not a good QB, why he is able to win games, more than the 'future HOFer' M Stafford? Somewhere you logic fails. Why not compare Freeman to Eli, Eli has stretches of suckkiness aswell, even this season. If you are so concerned about long time, why overvalue those 2 hot streaks in the POs, just once he made POs without a few lucky breaks/tie breakers. Why is Rivers unable to get the #1 offense and defense to the POs?

"Brady and Peyton combined have 1 single ring in the last 8 years".  No idea what your point is, but that's for the common knowledge.

In 2010, Brees and Ryan went to the playoffs... Freeman didn't.  Nuf said.

Freeman isn't a bad QB... he isn't a good QB, he's right in the middle I think.  There are about 12-15 QB's I'd take over him... about 12-15 I choose him over.  That makes him middle of the road.  As a starter he's 23-28, slightly less than average... take out the rookie season and he's 20-22.  That again, make him middle of the road.  He's been consistently able to beat the bad teams and has very few (4 to be exact... 3 of which are in division), wins against good teams.  Let's say the Bucs win in Atlanta at the end of the season.  If Minnesota ends up with a winning record, Josh Freeman will have approximately 26 wins... 20 of them against teams with a losing record.  Not counting this season, he's 5-20 against teams with a .500 or better.  At some point you have to have long term success against the better teams.

Who claim's that Stafford is a future hall of famer?  I think he's good... not yet great.  He may be, he may not be.  At this point in time, I'd be ok with him as my QB for the next 5 years.  I wouldn't be Aaron Rodgers comfortable, but I'd be ok.

Eli steps up in big games and has done so over and over.  Freeman has never had that opportunity.  It's unfair to hold Freeman up to that standard, so I don't.  If you want to, then this is the only place you can peddle that crap.  Try talking to a non-Bucs fan and throw some crap out there that Freeman is as good as Eli and watch how everyone on the planet laughs at you.

As far as Rivers goes, in 2010... I blame Norv Turner.  He's just bad.  Rivers' abilities is the only reason that team has won games in the past and why Turner still has a job.  I think both he and AJ Smith get fired this offseason.

So Rivers has bad coaching as an excuse? Freeman, despite Raheem the great, never was able to shine? Interesting.
Eli is 31 years old, Freeman is 24. After the 2010 season, Eli and Coughlin were on a verge of getting the boot. Freeman has to be where Eli is NOW. Interesting.
Stafford on your list was in the Brady/Peyton category, now he just 'may be, may be not'. Interesting.

So, the elite QBs never pad their stats vs bad teams? They just play the good teams? Espcially at the age of 24? Why does Peyton have more losses in the PO than wins?
When Ryan and Brees made the PO in 2010, it was their superior QB play that got them there, or was it the even easier shedule and better supporting cast?

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#138 : November 30, 2012, 04:48:30 PM

2010 was a great season by Freeman. I dont care who he was playing against. This is the nfl. There are no easy games at this level. I know you dont like Freeman but 2010 was a very good season for him. 25tds and 6 int is no joke for a guy in his second season, first as a starter.

We differ on that.  In the past, that has been true, but over the last 5 years... it's not.  Since the rule changes the NFL has made, there are definitely the "Haves" and "Have Nots".  If you "Have" good QB play, you win.  If you "Have Not" good QB play, you lose.

So your saying Alex Smith is the reason they're winning in San Francisco?

He just got benched for a rookie. That can't be right. Alex Smith lead the 49ers to a 6-2 record. Those wins were all on him, he did it, nothing else REALLY matters but the QB. A win is because the QB won it, a loss is because the QB lost it, right? You can't really believe that?

No, you can certainly win with a game manager QB as long as you have a great defense... I'm just hoping that Freeman is better than a game manager.  Baltimore has been doing that as well.  The Jets even did it.  The thing is, there's only going to be probably 2-3 teams with elite defenses every year, but in the end (conference championships), if you don't have a good QB, you're not going to win.  That's why the Jets lost... that's why the Ravens keep losing... and that's why the 49ers would have lost with Alex Smith this year.  They'll probably lose with Kaepernick too, but that's this year... we'll have to see things play out with him next year and possibly the year after.

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#139 : November 30, 2012, 05:02:43 PM

So Rivers has bad coaching as an excuse? Freeman, despite Raheem the great, never was able to shine? Interesting.
Eli is 31 years old, Freeman is 24. After the 2010 season, Eli and Coughlin were on a verge of getting the boot. Freeman has to be where Eli is NOW. Interesting.
Stafford on your list was in the Brady/Peyton category, now he just 'may be, may be not'. Interesting.

So, the elite QBs never pad their stats vs bad teams? They just play the good teams? Espcially at the age of 24? Why does Peyton have more losses in the PO than wins?
When Ryan and Brees made the PO in 2010, it was their superior QB play that got them there, or was it the even easier shedule and better supporting cast?

Rivers has made it to the playoffs multiple times despite bad coaching... Freeman hasn't made it once.  Issue closed.  Maybe when (hopefully... not if), Freeman makes the playoffs in multiple seeasons, it won't be an issue.

Eli was NEVER on the verge of getting the boot in 2010... neither was Coughlin, that was 2007 where Coughlin almost got fired, but Eli wasn't in any danger that year either.

Yes, Stafford is on my list with Brady and Peyton as guys who I think are franchise QB's.  Yes, it's possible that Stafford spits the bit and turns out not to be.  Right now I believe he's shown enough to be considered a franchise QB, that's why I put him in that category... it doesn't mean that the list is gospel and carve it in stone as perfect.

Since the NFL has been a more passing friendly league (2006), Peyton is 6-4... winning one SB, and losing the other to Drew Brees.  He also lost twice to Phillip Rivers.  The other loss was to the Jets when they had a top 3 defense.

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#140 : November 30, 2012, 06:22:51 PM


Rivers has made it to the playoffs multiple times despite bad coaching... Freeman hasn't made it once.  Issue closed.  Maybe when (hopefully... not if), Freeman makes the playoffs in multiple seeasons, it won't be an issue.

Eli was NEVER on the verge of getting the boot in 2010... neither was Coughlin, that was 2007 where Coughlin almost got fired, but Eli wasn't in any danger that year either.

Yes, Stafford is on my list with Brady and Peyton as guys who I think are franchise QB's.  Yes, it's possible that Stafford spits the bit and turns out not to be.  Right now I believe he's shown enough to be considered a franchise QB, that's why I put him in that category... it doesn't mean that the list is gospel and carve it in stone as perfect.

Since the NFL has been a more passing friendly league (2006), Peyton is 6-4... winning one SB, and losing the other to Drew Brees.  He also lost twice to Phillip Rivers.  The other loss was to the Jets when they had a top 3 defense.

Rivers is about to miss the PO for a 3rd straight year, seems to be a regularity for him now. If he is so great, one would think he atleast can string together a nice stretch of good games and sneak in, KC OAK and DEN were not juggernauts in last 2 years. His weapons are gone, Sproles, Vjax and Tomlinson, the D is fading, and all of a sudden he looks pretty odrinary.
Coughlin was on the hot seat in NY, and once again escaped it with a SB win. Eli had 25 INT that in 2010., there was enough talking about them just having one lucky year in 08. Remember his glorious coaching week 17 vs Phillie?
Stafford had ONE good year, how is this enough to be sold on him, when Freeman is just about to have his SECOND?
Funny how that one year Peyton won it, in the pass happy NFL, it  was his D# taht bailed him out, he had 3 TD and 7 INT, just once over 300, once over a QBR of 80, freaking 81.8 that day to be exact.

If you want to tell me Freeman has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same sentence as Brady and Peyton. Nice. Consitency is one thing to improve on.
But if you gonna tell me a 24 year QB is unable to get into the same category River, Cutler, Stafford and Ryan are already in, i'm not buying. Especially when those guys are inconsistent as anything, and even Brady and Peyton needed good D#s to win it all.
Maybe those guys(Rivers etc) are better than him now, but lightyears ahead, somewhere  where Freeman can never get? Nope. I would not even be happy if Freeman will have similar stats as Ryan when he turns 27. Still i would not worry about my QB as a falcon fan.

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#141 : November 30, 2012, 10:45:23 PM

too many pages to sift through, but the first pass Williams let up and turned in as Freeman threw. Prolly still would of been a little over his head on that one, but its not just Freeman. On the Jackson pass, Jackson lost the ball in the sun and was seen holding his hands out as the ball was in the air.

Both throws werent on the money, but both times the WRs also contributed to the incomplete throws.



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#142 : November 30, 2012, 10:48:29 PM

poor choice of plays to illustrate a point IMO. Not every throw is going to be on the money. Hell, even Ryan sailed a couple that day with wide open targets. Saw brees do it thursday too. Even upper echelon guys have throws like this almost every game. Not saying Freeman is there or the most accurate QB, just stating you can easily pull a couple plays from any game and make the same argument against any QB.

Its called cherry picking.



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#143 : December 01, 2012, 10:18:20 AM

poor choice of plays to illustrate a point IMO. Not every throw is going to be on the money. Hell, even Ryan sailed a couple that day with wide open targets. Saw brees do it thursday too. Even upper echelon guys have throws like this almost every game. Not saying Freeman is there or the most accurate QB, just stating you can easily pull a couple plays from any game and make the same argument against any QB.

Its called cherry picking.

^^^^^^^^This. Last week I saw Eli (under NO pressure) overthrow a wide open receiver in the flat. A ten year old kid or a ninety year old man could have completed that pass. It happens. Clearly Josh Freeman is the best QB in the NFCS. Two years ago Freeman threw six interceptions in sixteen games. Brees and Ryan have each thrown five interceptions in a single game this past month. Fig Newton is too immature to even include in this conversation.

Seriously, all things considered, Freeman has done better than could reasonably be expected given the situation he walked in to. Imagine if he had been drafted by the Jets and we had ended up with Sanchez. The Jets would have at least reached the SB with Freeman IMO, and they never would have felt the need to trade for Tebow. It is now quite obvious Sanchez can't carry a bad team. My point is this, Freeman has shown flashes of greatness despite poor coaching and playing on the youngest roster in the league. The coaching is better. The team is more talented and experienced. Judge him from this season forward. He can't be blamed for the situation he was forced to deal with.

Great teams are known for having the right QB, RB, and WR. The right coach also helps. I believe we have those elements right now. 2012 is just a tune-up for the future.

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#144 : December 01, 2012, 11:40:03 AM

poor choice of plays to illustrate a point IMO. Not every throw is going to be on the money. Hell, even Ryan sailed a couple that day with wide open targets. Saw brees do it thursday too. Even upper echelon guys have throws like this almost every game. Not saying Freeman is there or the most accurate QB, just stating you can easily pull a couple plays from any game and make the same argument against any QB.

Its called cherry picking.

^^^^^^^That x1000

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#145 : December 09, 2012, 05:52:46 PM

Bumpidy Bumpidy

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#146 : December 09, 2012, 06:28:43 PM

Good bump. I'm tired of #5.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

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#147 : December 23, 2012, 11:16:15 PM

Oh my, what is this thread I just found.

gone

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#148 : December 24, 2012, 12:53:55 AM

Clearly Josh Freeman is the best QB in the NFCS.

^^THIS^^^ Guy knows football....


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#149 : December 24, 2012, 12:57:10 AM

Tebow at least would have completed one of those passes

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