Should the Bucs sign QB Josh Freeman to long-term extension now?

[TBayXXXVII]

No it's not a larger sample size. 
Bree's played all 58 games for the Chargers and was with them for 5 full seasons 80 games I only listed the games he started.  Bree's got to sit his whole first year.  This Freeman's 4th year 61 games 54 games started.

That's because you're seeing what you choose to see and not what's actually there.  If you're not playing games, you can't put up numbers.  The bottom line is, the Chargers made the choice to replace Brees after he played in only 42 games.  That offseason, they drafted Rivers, then Brees played the following season.  After next season, Freeman will have played in 72 games.

Drew Bree's started 58 games for the Chargers not 42 games you are missing a season.   http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm

I'm not missing a season... YOU are missing the point.  THE CHARGERS DRAFTED RIVERS BEFORE BREES PLAYED HIS LAST YEAR IN SAN DIEGO.  THEY MADE THE DECISION TO REPLACE BREES AFTER HE PLAYED IN 42 GAMES.

[Theoldbuc]

Freeman: 54 games, 1,026-1,737, 59.1%, 12,090 yards, 7.0 YPA, 76 TD, 54 INT

Snachez: 60 games, 998-1,804, 55.3%, 11,756 yards, 6.5 YPA, 67 TD, 64 INT

Yet another stellar comparison.

Who was comparing Sanchez to Freeman, or saying that Sanchez was better?

The comment was regarding the TD record for this franchise. Sanchez overall has been below average, yet if he were on this team and performed the way he has at NY, he would soon be the franchise leader in TDs.

That puts the franchise record into perspective. It means nothing. Freeman overall, has been average. You can continue to be a stat-wh*re and continue to throw out random numbers, but the fact remains that Freeman is wildly inconsistent and the stats do not tell the whole story.

While you are correct about the cumulative nature of career statistics, the fact that Sanchez would need one and a half more seasons than Freeman to become the career leader completely invalidates him. Sanchez has never finished a season with a QB rating in the 80s. Freeman already holds the franchise record for QB rating for a full year starter and is currently sitting at #4 for highest QB rating this season. So Freeman has not only done it by longevity, he's done it by having peak performances, too.

Thing is chace, while we know the stats dont tell the whole story, the stats are still the stats. They are gonna be looked at seriously by this organization. If hes putting up those numbers while hes still 24, you dont just ignore that. You dont ignore stats where your 24 year old QB just broke all of your previous QBs stats. This organization likely wont do that. As much as the fans want to. They wont. They wont let another Doug Williams type situation happen. They will look at those numbers seriously and will most likely bring Freeman back because they have never had a QB have those numbers. You dont let him leave because hes been inconsistent at 24. While hes still young and can learn much more. The organization will feel he can get better no matter if the fans feel he has peaked. While the stats may be meaningless to the fans. It wont be to the people writing the checks.

That I don't disagree with, but it does disappoint me that it will probably be the case.

I think a fellow poster summed the situation up perfectly in another thread....

Actually the problem isn't that Freeman stinks. He is average. He puts up good numbers just often enough to make you think he is better than he is. Bad and great are convincing. But mediocre makes you live with the delusion for too many years. He is just good enough to waste our time and not good enough to get us where we want to go.

While I may be wasting my time asking this question to you, is it possible that Freemans best years are ahead? Hes had crappy coaching, **CENSORED** for weapons, and is still only 24, which means he still has some maturing to do. This year he gets better weapons, coaching, and gets in better shape (maturing) and has the best year of his career. Its very very possible that he only gets better. While its also possible he stays average. Its smarter and wiser to see through that potential. Especially if your a franchise who has had a very very tough time finding QBs. They will take average with potential over pure uncertainty every time at a very important position in this sport. Maybe the most important position in this sport. They will take average with potential every time.

You aren't wasting your time by asking that. It's not like I am a Freeman hater, or want the guy to fail. I am just not as enamored by the stats or much of what he has done in a Bucs uniform. I absolutely don't want him cut before his contract is up, I just need to see a lot more before I am willing to say that I want him to be resigned and be the QB for 5-10 more years.

To answer your question, of course it's possible. First you would have to define what you mean by "best years". Are you speaking of better stats? Are you speaking of playoff appearances? Playoff wins? SB title(s)? There is a possibility that "yes" could be the answer to all 4 of those questions. Personally, from what I have seen, I don't think that any of those questions can be accurately answered at this point and time , because he is so wildly inconsistent.

To me, the Bucs history with QBs is irrelevant. To me, his experience in the league makes his age irrelevant. Looking at his issues with accuracy and touch, also his overall poor play against quality opponents, (like beating new orleans in 2009 and 2010 or Atlanta in 2011, how about the game against NYG, this year? Overall this team has had a whole lot of issuies over the last 4 years.) I don't see any of the last 3 questions asked in the above paragraph being answered with a "yes"

For me, next year is key to this thread question. If he is great and leads us to the playoffs and maybe even a playoff win, then lock him in. If he continues the streaky play, then you weigh your options. With the franchise tag, we can buy 2-3 more years. It would be foolish to give him a contract extension just because he has a great physique and because he surpassed very low franchise records.

What is actually there: 2 out 3 of Freeman's full years starting he has put up record breaking numbers, including a 10 win season. Spare me the nonsense about a week schedule. This is the frickin' NFL!  According to some here (you know who you are) he sucks most of the time. It is undeniable that he plays poorly at times. But the body of work screams that there is some really good stuff to work with there. re Sunday: It isn't a matter of blame but a matter of fact, we had a 21-10 lead with 5 minutes to go. To say your QB didn't do enough at that point requires, deep seeded want to!

[BucBalla85]

Freeman: 54 games, 1,026-1,737, 59.1%, 12,090 yards, 7.0 YPA, 76 TD, 54 INT

Snachez: 60 games, 998-1,804, 55.3%, 11,756 yards, 6.5 YPA, 67 TD, 64 INT

Yet another stellar comparison.

Who was comparing Sanchez to Freeman, or saying that Sanchez was better?

The comment was regarding the TD record for this franchise. Sanchez overall has been below average, yet if he were on this team and performed the way he has at NY, he would soon be the franchise leader in TDs.

That puts the franchise record into perspective. It means nothing. Freeman overall, has been average. You can continue to be a stat-wh*re and continue to throw out random numbers, but the fact remains that Freeman is wildly inconsistent and the stats do not tell the whole story.

While you are correct about the cumulative nature of career statistics, the fact that Sanchez would need one and a half more seasons than Freeman to become the career leader completely invalidates him. Sanchez has never finished a season with a QB rating in the 80s. Freeman already holds the franchise record for QB rating for a full year starter and is currently sitting at #4 for highest QB rating this season. So Freeman has not only done it by longevity, he's done it by having peak performances, too.

Thing is chace, while we know the stats dont tell the whole story, the stats are still the stats. They are gonna be looked at seriously by this organization. If hes putting up those numbers while hes still 24, you dont just ignore that. You dont ignore stats where your 24 year old QB just broke all of your previous QBs stats. This organization likely wont do that. As much as the fans want to. They wont. They wont let another Doug Williams type situation happen. They will look at those numbers seriously and will most likely bring Freeman back because they have never had a QB have those numbers. You dont let him leave because hes been inconsistent at 24. While hes still young and can learn much more. The organization will feel he can get better no matter if the fans feel he has peaked. While the stats may be meaningless to the fans. It wont be to the people writing the checks.

That I don't disagree with, but it does disappoint me that it will probably be the case.

I think a fellow poster summed the situation up perfectly in another thread....

Actually the problem isn't that Freeman stinks. He is average. He puts up good numbers just often enough to make you think he is better than he is. Bad and great are convincing. But mediocre makes you live with the delusion for too many years. He is just good enough to waste our time and not good enough to get us where we want to go.

While I may be wasting my time asking this question to you, is it possible that Freemans best years are ahead? Hes had crappy coaching, **CENSORED** for weapons, and is still only 24, which means he still has some maturing to do. This year he gets better weapons, coaching, and gets in better shape (maturing) and has the best year of his career. Its very very possible that he only gets better. While its also possible he stays average. Its smarter and wiser to see through that potential. Especially if your a franchise who has had a very very tough time finding QBs. They will take average with potential over pure uncertainty every time at a very important position in this sport. Maybe the most important position in this sport. They will take average with potential every time.

You aren't wasting your time by asking that. It's not like I am a Freeman hater, or want the guy to fail. I am just not as enamored by the stats or much of what he has done in a Bucs uniform. I absolutely don't want him cut before his contract is up, I just need to see a lot more before I am willing to say that I want him to be resigned and be the QB for 5-10 more years.

To answer your question, of course it's possible. First you would have to define what you mean by "best years". Are you speaking of better stats? Are you speaking of playoff appearances? Playoff wins? SB title(s)? There is a possibility that "yes" could be the answer to all 4 of those questions. Personally, from what I have seen, I don't think that any of those questions can be accurately answered at this point and time , because he is so wildly inconsistent.

To me, the Bucs history with QBs is irrelevant. To me, his experience in the league makes his age irrelevant. Looking at his issues with accuracy and touch, also his overall poor play against quality opponents, I don't see any of the last 3 questions asked in the above paragraph being answered with a "yes"

For me, next year is key to this thread question. If he is great and leads us to the playoffs and maybe even a playoff win, then lock him in. If he continues the streaky play, then you weigh your options. With the franchise tag, we can buy 2-3 more years. It would be foolish to give him a contract extension just because he has a great physique and because he surpassed very low franchise records.

I dont necessarily disagree with your or TBays assessment of Freeman so far because he has been up and down. Including this year. I just feel that he would be cheaper right now vs next year where he very well could cost a lot more than now. Of course everything were talking about is all hypotheticals on next years play. Nobody could really see what that will look like. I actually think Freeman is in line with you guys on waiting another year because Im sure he feels he could do even better next year. I just feel we will resign him eventually. The organization will most likely resign their Franchise leader for TDs. I just feel the sooner the better. More money to spend to other areas.

[Dolorous Jason]

What is actually there: 2 out 3 of Freeman's full years starting he has put up record breaking numbers, including a 10 win season. Spare me the nonsense about a week schedule. This is the frickin' NFL!  According to some here (you know who you are) he sucks most of the time. It is undeniable that he plays poorly at times. But the body of work screams that there is some really good stuff to work with there. re Sunday: It isn't a matter of blame but a matter of fact, we had a 21-10 lead with 5 minutes to go. To say your QB didn't do enough at that point requires, deep seeded want to!

I tend to agree with this. Good post.

[BucBalla85]

What is actually there: 2 out 3 of Freeman's full years starting he has put up record breaking numbers, including a 10 win season. Spare me the nonsense about a week schedule. This is the frickin' NFL!  According to some here (you know who you are) he sucks most of the time. It is undeniable that he plays poorly at times. But the body of work screams that there is some really good stuff to work with there. re Sunday: It isn't a matter of blame but a matter of fact, we had a 21-10 lead with 5 minutes to go. To say your QB didn't do enough at that point requires, deep seeded want to!

I tend to agree with this. Good post.

Thats true but to take another view, they were down 10-0 in the first because the offense stunk. You really can look at this in any way you choose to. You make a fantastic point about the potential there. It would be insanely dumb to ignore that potential. I know nobody is saying to do that. Its just a big thing to remember with all of this and why it may actually be smarter to try to sign him now. He could have a MONSTER season next year. That would be great for the team but how would you feel about giving him a mega deal then? He would deserve it and all but we would need money for other things too.

[chace1986]

You aren't wasting your time by asking that. It's not like I am a Freeman hater, or want the guy to fail. I am just not as enamored by the stats or much of what he has done in a Bucs uniform. I absolutely don't want him cut before his contract is up, I just need to see a lot more before I am willing to say that I want him to be resigned and be the QB for 5-10 more years.

To answer your question, of course it's possible. First you would have to define what you mean by "best years". Are you speaking of better stats? Are you speaking of playoff appearances? Playoff wins? SB title(s)? There is a possibility that "yes" could be the answer to all 4 of those questions. Personally, from what I have seen, I don't think that any of those questions can be accurately answered at this point and time , because he is so wildly inconsistent.

To me, the Bucs history with QBs is irrelevant. To me, his experience in the league makes his age irrelevant. Looking at his issues with accuracy and touch, also his overall poor play against quality opponents, (like beating new orleans in 2009 and 2010 or Atlanta in 2011, how about the game against NYG, this year? Overall this team has had a whole lot of issuies over the last 4 years.) I don't see any of the last 3 questions asked in the above paragraph being answered with a "yes"

For me, next year is key to this thread question. If he is great and leads us to the playoffs and maybe even a playoff win, then lock him in. If he continues the streaky play, then you weigh your options. With the franchise tag, we can buy 2-3 more years. It would be foolish to give him a contract extension just because he has a great physique and because he surpassed very low franchise records.

What is actually there: 2 out 3 of Freeman's full years starting he has put up record breaking numbers, including a 10 win season. Spare me the nonsense about a week schedule. This is the frickin' NFL!  According to some here (you know who you are) he sucks most of the time. It is undeniable that he plays poorly at times. But the body of work screams that there is some really good stuff to work with there. re Sunday: It isn't a matter of blame but a matter of fact, we had a 21-10 lead with 5 minutes to go. To say your QB didn't do enough at that point requires, deep seeded want to!

Please don't quote my posts if all you are going to do is post weak trash like that. Record breaking numbers. Ha! This franchise has relatively low stat records and its a passing league now, so it doesn't take much to surpass those numbers. The schedule was "week". Ignore it if you like to. Freeman does deserve credit for pulling the Ws out of his ass, but he also deserves a bit of criticism for not doing his job for 3 quarters and having to play hero at the end because he didn't play a complete game. He doesn't just play poorly "at times". He plays poorly about half of the time. The body of work, if looked at objectively, is above average. To your last sentence, I'll quote our very own Mark Cook...

For the second week in a row quarterback Josh Freeman had a subpar game. In both games Freeman showed periods of solid play, but again, inconsistency, proved too much, and the lackluster quarterback play doomed the Buccaneers chances for winning.

Freeman started the game off 5-for-16 for 61 yards in the first half. That’s right, 5-for-16, the kind of numbers that are usually reserved for rookies, not four-year veterans. And the misses weren’t close misses, they were uncatchable balls for the most part and had the Eagles defenders not have had hands of stones, there might have been a couple interceptions to go along with the paltry numbers.

When Freeman is on, he is one of the best in the NFL, when he is off – just the opposite. Freeman did rally in the second half and played better, leading the Buccaneers to 21 points, but if Freeman only played average in the first half, the Buccaneers most likely win by double digits.

Based upon that, would you say that Mark Cook has a "deep seeded want" to blame Freeman?

[chace1986]

You aren't wasting your time by asking that. It's not like I am a Freeman hater, or want the guy to fail. I am just not as enamored by the stats or much of what he has done in a Bucs uniform. I absolutely don't want him cut before his contract is up, I just need to see a lot more before I am willing to say that I want him to be resigned and be the QB for 5-10 more years.

To answer your question, of course it's possible. First you would have to define what you mean by "best years". Are you speaking of better stats? Are you speaking of playoff appearances? Playoff wins? SB title(s)? There is a possibility that "yes" could be the answer to all 4 of those questions. Personally, from what I have seen, I don't think that any of those questions can be accurately answered at this point and time , because he is so wildly inconsistent.

To me, the Bucs history with QBs is irrelevant. To me, his experience in the league makes his age irrelevant. Looking at his issues with accuracy and touch, also his overall poor play against quality opponents, I don't see any of the last 3 questions asked in the above paragraph being answered with a "yes"

For me, next year is key to this thread question. If he is great and leads us to the playoffs and maybe even a playoff win, then lock him in. If he continues the streaky play, then you weigh your options. With the franchise tag, we can buy 2-3 more years. It would be foolish to give him a contract extension just because he has a great physique and because he surpassed very low franchise records.

I dont necessarily disagree with your or TBays assessment of Freeman so far because he has been up and down. Including this year. I just feel that he would be cheaper right now vs next year where he very well could cost a lot more than now. Of course everything were talking about is all hypotheticals on next years play. Nobody could really see what that will look like. I actually think Freeman is in line with you guys on waiting another year because Im sure he feels he could do even better next year. I just feel we will resign him eventually. The organization will most likely resign their Franchise leader for TDs. I just feel the sooner the better. More money to spend to other areas.

So it comes down to money? Hove you looked at what Freeman is scheduled to make next year? His cap hit is $9,760,000. How much more than that do you think he will command? At most, I say $2-3 million more a year, if we wait. That's a drop in the bucket when looking at the overall salary of the team. Especially since the new TV deal kicks in at the start of the 2014 league year. I have seen estimations that show the cap going between $125-130 million. It's not going to cost nearly as much as you think it will, cause the guy already makes a boatload of cash. I think it will be money we spent if we have to spend $2-3 million more to make sure he is a guy who can get us to the playoffs and have a shot at a SB, and not just break silly franchise records.

[Chief Joseph]

 "Spare me the nonsense about a week schedule."

Most of the games do come about a week apart.

[Benchwarmer#1]

Freeman, once again, had the ability to come back in a game after being down and playing like crap the first half. Nevermind the defense ever giving him some help (other than resting).

That ability to me screams bright future. If the defense can at least be average on both running and passing downs, this team would be contending for a playoff spot. Freeman is one of the last players to blame. He did very well this season, all things considered (another new system, coaches, players,etc)

I bet at some point, with all the new faces, he probably felt like a rookie again. Good effort by freeman this season, baaaaaaad effort on the DB's once again.

[Chief Joseph]

 "Freeman, once again, had the ability to come back in a game after being down and playing like crap the first half. ...That ability to me screams bright future."

Playing like crap really does scream "bright future," doesn't it?

[chace1986]

Freeman, once again, had the ability to come back in a game after being down and playing like crap the first half. Nevermind the defense ever giving him some help (other than resting).

That ability to me screams bright future. If the defense can at least be average on both running and passing downs, this team would be contending for a playoff spot. Freeman is one of the last players to blame. He did very well this season, all things considered (another new system, coaches, players,etc)

I bet at some point, with all the new faces, he probably felt like a rookie again. Good effort by freeman this season, baaaaaaad effort on the DB's once again.

To the bold.

Let me ask you this. Would you say that the defense did an average job on Sunday? They allowed 10 points in the first half, and 13 points in the second half. If you were to know that the defense allowed that amount of points before the game started, would you have been happy about that considering the year they have had? I would have. The Bucs have 23 or more points in 9 games this year.

What I think some are doing is adjusting their expectations of the defense so that they don't have to place any of the blame on Freeman.

Freeman has had his ups and downs this year. He was great in the 5-6 game tear, but in 4 of the Bucs 7 losses, he has had a major role in then coming up short. Dallas, Washington, Denver, and Philly.

[BucBalla85]

You aren't wasting your time by asking that. It's not like I am a Freeman hater, or want the guy to fail. I am just not as enamored by the stats or much of what he has done in a Bucs uniform. I absolutely don't want him cut before his contract is up, I just need to see a lot more before I am willing to say that I want him to be resigned and be the QB for 5-10 more years.

To answer your question, of course it's possible. First you would have to define what you mean by "best years". Are you speaking of better stats? Are you speaking of playoff appearances? Playoff wins? SB title(s)? There is a possibility that "yes" could be the answer to all 4 of those questions. Personally, from what I have seen, I don't think that any of those questions can be accurately answered at this point and time , because he is so wildly inconsistent.

To me, the Bucs history with QBs is irrelevant. To me, his experience in the league makes his age irrelevant. Looking at his issues with accuracy and touch, also his overall poor play against quality opponents, I don't see any of the last 3 questions asked in the above paragraph being answered with a "yes"

For me, next year is key to this thread question. If he is great and leads us to the playoffs and maybe even a playoff win, then lock him in. If he continues the streaky play, then you weigh your options. With the franchise tag, we can buy 2-3 more years. It would be foolish to give him a contract extension just because he has a great physique and because he surpassed very low franchise records.

I dont necessarily disagree with your or TBays assessment of Freeman so far because he has been up and down. Including this year. I just feel that he would be cheaper right now vs next year where he very well could cost a lot more than now. Of course everything were talking about is all hypotheticals on next years play. Nobody could really see what that will look like. I actually think Freeman is in line with you guys on waiting another year because Im sure he feels he could do even better next year. I just feel we will resign him eventually. The organization will most likely resign their Franchise leader for TDs. I just feel the sooner the better. More money to spend to other areas.

So it comes down to money? Hove you looked at what Freeman is scheduled to make next year? His cap hit is $9,760,000. How much more than that do you think he will command? At most, I say $2-3 million more a year, if we wait. That's a drop in the bucket when looking at the overall salary of the team. Especially since the new TV deal kicks in at the start of the 2014 league year. I have seen estimations that show the cap going between $125-130 million. It's not going to cost nearly as much as you think it will, cause the guy already makes a boatload of cash. I think it will be money we spent if we have to spend $2-3 million more to make sure he is a guy who can get us to the playoffs and have a shot at a SB, and not just break silly franchise records.

Well thats good to know. I dont think he should break the bank at all. Im a little more in line with you guys in that he doesnt deserve the big pay day yet.

[BucBalla85]

Freeman, once again, had the ability to come back in a game after being down and playing like crap the first half. Nevermind the defense ever giving him some help (other than resting).

That ability to me screams bright future. If the defense can at least be average on both running and passing downs, this team would be contending for a playoff spot. Freeman is one of the last players to blame. He did very well this season, all things considered (another new system, coaches, players,etc)

I bet at some point, with all the new faces, he probably felt like a rookie again. Good effort by freeman this season, baaaaaaad effort on the DB's once again.

To the bold.

Let me ask you this. Would you say that the defense did an average job on Sunday? They allowed 10 points in the first half, and 13 points in the second half. If you were to know that the defense allowed that amount of points before the game started, would you have been happy about that considering the year they have had? I would have. The Bucs have 23 or more points in 9 games this year.

What I think some are doing is adjusting their expectations of the defense so that they don't have to place any of the blame on Freeman.

Freeman has had his ups and downs this year. He was great in the 5-6 game tear, but in 4 of the Bucs 7 losses, he has had a major role in then coming up short. Dallas, Washington, Denver, and Philly.

I think that the defense has left a lot to be desired, much like Freeman has. For some reason they cant seem to perform together consistently. I think the defense has gotten a little better while Freeman has regressed a little. I think if the defense is better next year and Freeman learns from some of his mistakes this year they will have a very good chance at playoffs next year. Maybe even division title.

[Hate]

Drew Bree's first 58 games:  79 TD  53 INT after 58 games he was 26 years old at the end of that season.  Chargers let him go after that year, I wonder if they would like to do that over?

Their decision was made for them due to Lynch busting up his shoulder.

Now that I think about it. Foedus brings up a great point. Do we really think they wont resign the franchise leader in TDs? Given this franchise history with QBs they would not let Freeman get away. Hes young and full of potential. They will resign him. Its just a question of when I believe.

There is no doubt!!

[Bucs_Rule]

Freeman, once again, had the ability to come back in a game after being down and playing like crap the first half. Nevermind the defense ever giving him some help (other than resting).

That ability to me screams bright future. If the defense can at least be average on both running and passing downs, this team would be contending for a playoff spot. Freeman is one of the last players to blame. He did very well this season, all things considered (another new system, coaches, players,etc)

I bet at some point, with all the new faces, he probably felt like a rookie again. Good effort by freeman this season, baaaaaaad effort on the DB's once again.

To the bold.

Let me ask you this. Would you say that the defense did an average job on Sunday? They allowed 10 points in the first half, and 13 points in the second half. If you were to know that the defense allowed that amount of points before the game started, would you have been happy about that considering the year they have had? I would have. The Bucs have 23 or more points in 9 games this year.

What I think some are doing is adjusting their expectations of the defense so that they don't have to place any of the blame on Freeman.

Freeman has had his ups and downs this year. He was great in the 5-6 game tear, but in 4 of the Bucs 7 losses, he has had a major role in then coming up short. Dallas, Washington, Denver, and Philly.

Way to nitpick facts Chace. The fact is the score was 21-10 with 7:20 left in the 4th quarter. If the defense actually did its job and stopped somebody the Bucs would have won the game.

Did Freeman play poorly in the first half? Yes.
Did Freeman make enough plays to win the game in the 2nd half? Yes.

The defense cost the team the game.