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Naismith

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: December 17, 2012, 09:30:49 AM

Okay, first, can we keep any of the Freeman opinions to the multitude of Freeman threads? I'd like to discuss the positions where the team needs to improve in the offseason and how people think they should go about them. I don't follow a ton of college football, so if you have specific players you'd like to target for the draft, please list them so I can watch highlight packages and then be convinced they're going to the Hall of Fame, a la Miles Burris last year. My opinion:

Highest priority: Pass rush. The team needs to get some pressure on the QBs. I think it's hard to judge the philosophical foundation of the current defense when it's clear they're doing everything to get to the QB. Bowers looks like he's going to be good when and if he's fully healthy and Clayborn will be back next season, so maybe the answer is just getting healthier?

Secondary priority: Secondary (pun intended). Until the team can consistently get pressure without sending everyone, I don't think any number of great DBs would look good. Quarterbacks just have too much time to throw. That said, I think Biggers has improved as the season has gone on and has proven that he can be part of the plan going forward. They have to decide what to do with Wright. I think they should keep him unless they want him gone for character reasons. On the field, he's the most talented CB on the team. I'd feel comfortable with a Wright/Biggers/Rookie or FA trio if Biggers was the third guy, and let Johnson and Gaitor develop as depth players. In terms of safeties, I think ideally, Ahmad Black would step in for Barber and the team would keep chugging along, but bringing in some competition to fill that role is good idea.

Additional upgrades:
- The backup running back position needs to be addressed, whether it be getting more comfortable with Blount as an option or getting someone else, Martin can't get as many touches as he has this season, especially with his running style. I find it strange that they don't run the ball with Ware ever.
- Slot WR. It seems like Freeman isn't a huge fan of the routes Underwood runs. I like Underwood and I like his story, but I feel like he'd be a better fourth WR, backing up Jackson and Williams and letting a more precise route-runner work the medium routes. Someone else mentioned Welker in another thread and, while I'm not sure that's a likely addition, I think he'd be exactly what the doctor ordered. He's going to get a big contract somewhere and I doubt the Bucs want to invest that much into their WR corps.
- Linebacker. I think other people will perceive this is as a bigger need than I do, but I'm happy with David and Foster and think that two linebacker sets will be more of the norm with the excessive passing in the league. I know pass rushing linebackers are more of a staple of the 3-4 defense, but could a situational pass rushing third linebacker be part of the answer to getting to the QB? Anyone think Black will be back next year with a renegotiated deal?
- Receiving tight end. Freeman has gotten more comfortable with Clark as the season has gone on, but Clark's not going to play forever. I don't think an elite TE is necessary in the offense and might be a luxury if Freeman had more faith in the slot WR. I think Stocker has improved as a receiving threat in limited opportunities and has a chance to be a traditional blocking/receiving TE. Byham is an excellent blocker.


There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

bradentonian

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#1 : December 17, 2012, 09:39:57 AM

CB is need #1 and #2. Think pass rush issues are more scheme based than talent.  Maybe a new NT or back up for McCoy.  Reliable 3wr is huge. As you said Underwood is a horrible fit and works better as a situational 4th, if that.  Freeman currently has no confidence in his check down options if he is under pressure or if the down field looks aren't there.


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#2 : December 17, 2012, 09:51:23 AM

If we go CB in the early rounds then we need to protect this investment by hiring an experienced secondary coach.

Ron Cooper ain't cutting it and I'm not comfortable entrusting him with our top rookies.



Naismith

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#3 : December 17, 2012, 09:52:17 AM

Think pass rush issues are more scheme based than talent.

Could you go into more detail on this? It seems to me that the scheming is trying to manufacture pressure on the QB using a wild array of blitzing to make up for the lack of pressure by the front four on their own, but it's still not working.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

bradentonian

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#4 : December 17, 2012, 10:05:15 AM

Think pass rush issues are more scheme based than talent.

Could you go into more detail on this? It seems to me that the scheming is trying to manufacture pressure on the QB using a wild array of blitzing to make up for the lack of pressure by the front four on their own, but it's still not working.


Blitzing is a big part of Schiano's philosophy. I think that's true regardless of what the front four can accomplish on their own. I do believe they tried to dial it up after losing clayborn, but I think that hurt more than it helped because many of the blitz designs take away from what our DL do best. Rather than just rushing the qb, now you've got DL trying to create gaps for the blitzers or even dropping into coverage.


Naismith

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#5 : December 17, 2012, 10:13:44 AM

I don't know enough about Schiano's history. I assumed the blitzing was to compensate for a lack of pressure, not necessarily the preferred method. Schiano seems aggressive enough to have a hefty blitz package, but I never expected to see anyone blitz as often and with as many people as the Bucs do currently.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

bucs449

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#6 : December 17, 2012, 11:00:22 AM

I agree that the lack of pass rush has a lot to do with scheme. This team runs a lot of line stunts which are definitely good to use, but I feel like they are over used and when they get blocked up, there can be some contain problems. We know how talented Bennett, McCoy, and Bowers are and I think pass rush would improve greatly if Sheridan would just let them hunt. Let these talented guys pin their ears back and just get after the QB.

Also, the three man line should NEVER be used.

GameTime

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#7 : December 17, 2012, 11:21:39 AM

pass rush - if we want a consistent pressure from a 4-3 defense then we need a lot.  i really like the bowers/clayborn/bennett trio, but i like it because its more of a stop the run on the way to harassing the QB.  i dont think any of those guys are consistent 15 sack a year guys (which i think many here want/expect).  if we want to stop blitzing, we need serious upgrades at DE and DT, and that means serious resources imo.

secondary - i liked the wright signing, but i hope the experiment is over.  i think he's got a certain skillset that can be adequately replaced by johnson/gaitor.  i like biggers as a depth guy, he does seem to be improving but he always gives up the big one to a no-namer.  i would like to see our serious resources put into CB, although i really dont know what type of DB schiano wants.  if DRC's head is straight go for it, i like the local story and potential.  i also really like sean smith even though he has faults.  those 2 guys with biggers/johnson/gaitor would be a nice 5 imo.

backup RB - definitely.  everyone (including me) gets excited about the big names but we can get what we need with nobodies imo.  ivory, javarris williams (i like) and dozens of other guys can hit the hole hard and be proficient with the playbook.

slot WR - underwood has underwhelmed this season.  i do like him on the roster, but possibly we could find a new slot guy.  welker is a joke imo.  no way we need resources tied into a slot WR.  the last thing i want is freeman throwing more 5 yard passes.   not to go offtopic, but a QB's timing/accuracy/comfort level go a long way with a slot WR.

LB - khasem greene seems the obvious choice but that would tie up a 2nd/3rd for a player that leaves the field a lot.  time to sink or swim with hayward/watson/some new 6th round warrior.  i still dream about acquiring jarvis jones as our von miller, but thats a pipedream.

TE - i really like zach ertz, but i only saw the oregon game.  was very impressed by his hands.  i would like to see stocker get one more year, agree i like bynam...so not really sure what to do what to do.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

TBayXXXVII

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#8 : December 17, 2012, 11:31:14 AM

I'd focus primarily on CB's, a RT, and a C.  If a LT upgrade oppertunity presents itself, it should be taken, but I wouldn't actively look for one.  There are plenty of teams out there that would love to have Penn.  While he's not great, he is a solid starter.  I wouldn't bother at all with a QB.  Honestly, I think that if they brought in someone reasonable, they'd beat out Freeman for the starting job.  I'm still ok with giving Freeman next year only because I don't think there's a franchise QB in this draft.  Now, if Alex Smith or Phillip Rivers becomes available and the Bucs were to obtain one, the Bucs should be able to take advantage of the QB-needy teams and get maybe a 2nd round pick for Freeman.

I think they'd be able to get at least 1 CB and either a RT or C in free agency and then the other CB and other lineman in the draft.  Outside of that, I'd look for a receiver who could get open in the middle of the field and catch the ball...  a guy like Amendola comes to mind.  Ryan S**CENSORED**e is a guy in the draft who could fit that bill as well.  Having someone like him could force the CB's and safties to respect the underneath a little more.

Edit: Just in case the Censored crap disguises the player I mentioned, it the kid from A&M S.w.o.p.e.
: December 17, 2012, 11:40:45 AM TBayXXXVII

Naismith

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#9 : December 17, 2012, 12:10:30 PM

pass rush - if we want a consistent pressure from a 4-3 defense then we need a lot.  i really like the bowers/clayborn/bennett trio, but i like it because its more of a stop the run on the way to harassing the QB.  i dont think any of those guys are consistent 15 sack a year guys (which i think many here want/expect).  if we want to stop blitzing, we need serious upgrades at DE and DT, and that means serious resources imo.

I wonder if Bowers can become that big sack guy. I'm amazed at how effective he has been returning quickly from a bad injury. This is two years in a row that he's had to have been eased into things. With some luck, health-wise, I think he can be the pass-rushing threat that teams fear. Bowers was a LDE and is playing mostly on the right side, right? Bowers and Bennett have both moved around enough that I think they can rotate in the three DEs and stay pretty fresh. I'm very much in favor in bringing in help to get pressure on the QB, but I could be talked into a Bowers/Bennett and Clayborn/Nesheim rotation. I think it could be the answer, it just requires a certain amount of luck from a health perspective. I wonder why they cut Wallace Gilberry? He's played well, it seems, for the Bengals.

secondary - i liked the wright signing, but i hope the experiment is over.  i think he's got a certain skillset that can be adequately replaced by johnson/gaitor.  i like biggers as a depth guy, he does seem to be improving but he always gives up the big one to a no-namer.  i would like to see our serious resources put into CB, although i really dont know what type of DB schiano wants.  if DRC's head is straight go for it, i like the local story and potential.  i also really like sean smith even though he has faults.  those 2 guys with biggers/johnson/gaitor would be a nice 5 imo.

I'm not an expert on what makes a CB great by any means, but Wright just looks more fluid and natural out there than any of the other guys. I don't know if I can adequately describe what I mean, but I have a lot more confidence when he's on the field than when he isn't. What about a guy like Nnamdi? Assuming he gets released like most Eagles fans seem to think, would people be confident with a Nnamdi/Wright/Biggers/Johnson/Gaitor group of CBs? I know there's a lot of money invested in Wright and Nnamdi would cost some money, but it should be considerably less than his last deal. I get the impression that Schiano is not afraid to bring in older players if they're good leaders and can provide a good example (I have no idea if that describes Nnamdi, though).

backup RB - definitely.  everyone (including me) gets excited about the big names but we can get what we need with nobodies imo.  ivory, javarris williams (i like) and dozens of other guys can hit the hole hard and be proficient with the playbook.

I would love it if the Bucs signed Chris Ivory.

slot WR - underwood has underwhelmed this season.  i do like him on the roster, but possibly we could find a new slot guy.  welker is a joke imo.  no way we need resources tied into a slot WR.  the last thing i want is freeman throwing more 5 yard passes.   not to go offtopic, but a QB's timing/accuracy/comfort level go a long way with a slot WR.

I can't imagine how anyone thinks Welker is a joke. I definitely think he is an unreasonable expectation in terms of a FA acquisition. I know no one is interested in seeing Arrelious Benn's name, but I'd love to see him turn it around. I think it's more likely that the team acquires that slot WR in the draft. I don't know any of the names, though.

LB - khasem greene seems the obvious choice but that would tie up a 2nd/3rd for a player that leaves the field a lot.  time to sink or swim with hayward/watson/some new 6th round warrior.  i still dream about acquiring jarvis jones as our von miller, but thats a pipedream.

I think Watson has earned a shot because of his work on special teams, but for a guy that is often described as a pass rusher, I've never seen any evidence that he is that. If he can get to the QB, I'd like to see him in when they decide to use that three man line. At least then, there would be the threat of a fourth rusher, even if he doesn't go.

TE - i really like zach ertz, but i only saw the oregon game.  was very impressed by his hands.  i would like to see stocker get one more year, agree i like bynam...so not really sure what to do what to do.

Yeah, I definitely don't think TE is as big of a need as others do. I wonder how Dunsmore has done on the practice squad. Style-wise, he seems to be a project version of Dallas Clark. With Stocker, Byham and Noble returning from injury, I think this position doesn't really need to be addressed.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

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#10 : December 17, 2012, 12:10:59 PM


 If Dom and co don't target the secondary early and often, then they are doing it wrong. Some of the issues with the pass rush are missing Clayborn, the constant stunting that negates McCoy's initial burst at the snap, and the fact that our corners couldn't cover Eric Legrand.

Naismith

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#11 : December 17, 2012, 12:14:56 PM

I'd focus primarily on CB's, a RT, and a C.  If a LT upgrade oppertunity presents itself, it should be taken, but I wouldn't actively look for one.  There are plenty of teams out there that would love to have Penn.  While he's not great, he is a solid starter.  I wouldn't bother at all with a QB.  Honestly, I think that if they brought in someone reasonable, they'd beat out Freeman for the starting job.  I'm still ok with giving Freeman next year only because I don't think there's a franchise QB in this draft.  Now, if Alex Smith or Phillip Rivers becomes available and the Bucs were to obtain one, the Bucs should be able to take advantage of the QB-needy teams and get maybe a 2nd round pick for Freeman.

I think they'd be able to get at least 1 CB and either a RT or C in free agency and then the other CB and other lineman in the draft.  Outside of that, I'd look for a receiver who could get open in the middle of the field and catch the ball...  a guy like Amendola comes to mind.  Ryan S**CENSORED**e is a guy in the draft who could fit that bill as well.  Having someone like him could force the CB's and safties to respect the underneath a little more.

Edit: Just in case the Censored crap disguises the player I mentioned, it the kid from A&M S.w.o.p.e.

Wow, can't believe that name was censored.

As a rule, I don't think you can ever go wrong drafting linemen on either side of the ball. Specifically about Dotson, hasn't he been pretty impressive for a first-year starter and a guy so inexperienced at football?

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

warrenfb12

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#12 : December 17, 2012, 12:39:17 PM

Think pass rush issues are more scheme based than talent.

Could you go into more detail on this? It seems to me that the scheming is trying to manufacture pressure on the QB using a wild array of blitzing to make up for the lack of pressure by the front four on their own, but it's still not working.


Blitzing is a big part of Schiano's philosophy. I think that's true regardless of what the front four can accomplish on their own. I do believe they tried to dial it up after losing clayborn, but I think that hurt more than it helped because many of the blitz designs take away from what our DL do best. Rather than just rushing the qb, now you've got DL trying to create gaps for the blitzers or even dropping into coverage.

Disagree. Where was "big-money Bennett?" Another no-show game against a good offensive line. It is a talent issue. I think we will be much better off with Clayborn back next year. However, as the old cliche goes, you can never have too many pass rushers. Tired of hearing "scheme issues," those guys were allowed to get after it numerous times in that game/were aided by blitzs and had plenty of line games. It is not the scheme. That being said, it is difficult to get to the QB when CBs cannot cover ANYONE. These receivers are so open QBs generally need very little time to make a decision. Why go through your progression when the primary read is ALWAYS open.

Anthony Becht touched on the drafting a CB thing here and I tend to agree with him. Why draft a high round CB and continue to lean on these rookies to hold up the back end? How much better will we really be if we take a 1st round CB next year? I think CB is an option through FA. Cut ties with Wright, and move on. I am not saying break the bank. I am just looking for a quality starts kinda guy/maybe two. Then supplement with a late draft pick or two.

A guy who I would also like to see the Bucs take a hard look at is Danny Amendola(sp?). Injury concerns but would be huge in the slot.

As far as the draft goes, in the first round I am kind of split. One on hand, I would like to see a pass rusher. I think if we are high enough to get Werner then he should be the pick, no brainer, IMO. Then I start thinking that grabbing a guy like Tyler Eifert would be just what this offense needs. So one of those two would be my choices.

1-DE/TE
2-CB
3-WR
4-CB
4-S
5-RB

Something along those lines would be appropriate. It is still too early a lot has to shake out.
: December 17, 2012, 12:40:54 PM warrenfb12


Naismith

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#13 : December 17, 2012, 12:43:36 PM

I think Amendola is going to command a pretty high salary.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

warrenfb12

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#14 : December 17, 2012, 12:51:28 PM

I think Amendola is going to command a pretty high salary.

As high as Welker?

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