The 2nd Amendment

[olafberserker]

because he makes up the rules and his arguments as he goes along ..... yet people have argued with him for 24 pages ......

[CBWx2]

Laughable that all of you are echoing the same right wing talking points on this issue, yet all of you claim to be "free thinkers" and are labeling me as brain washed. Typical right wing horse crap. "Either you think just like me, or you are incapable of thinking for yourself."

Here's a question for you free thinkers, what does Honduras, El Salvador, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Sierra Leone, Saint Kitts, and Nevis have in common with the United States? If your answer is, "hardly anything", you would be correct. They have a lot in common with each other, though. High unemployment, underdeveloped economies, high poverty rates, insufficient legal infrustructures, unstable governments, etc. But not very much with the United States. So one would wonder, what could be learned by comparing the murder rate or rate of firearm violence between these countries and the US? Not a damn thing, is the correct answer.

To that end, how similar is the US to Switzerland? Do they have a similar rate of gun ownership? Do they have similar gun laws? Do they have a similar demographic makeup? The answer to each of these questions is also, a resounding, "no". So one would wonder, what could be learned by comparing the murder rate or rate of firearm violence between these two countries? Not a damn thing, is again, the correct answer.

But I'm sure you have no issue with these specious comparisons.Why would you? It gives you all the ammunition you need (no pun intended) to continue to decieve yourself into thinking you are in the right. Fortunately, you are also in the minority. The common theme of all of your arguments? "There is just no easy answer to why people shoot people so much in this country". "Because they have easy access to guns", just isn't an answer any of you are willing to see the resounding logic in. I suppose the angle is, if you make change seem too hard, then people will give up on change. It's not working.

Yet you have just spent the last 24 pages comparing the US with countries like the UK, Australia, Germany etc saying these are models we need to follow! Neither one of those countries have or had gun ownership rates similar to the US etc. So why are they legitimate comparisons?

Because they are demographically similar to the US. I thought that was pretty clear. I guess not. Switzerland is one of the least urbanized countries in Europe, has among the least number of people below the poverty line in Europe, and is one of the most homogenized societies in Europe. It looks nothing like the United States.

The UK, Australia, and Germany are all more urbanized than the United States, and have similar poverty rates as the United States. They have either an equal or higher rate of individuals that demographically have a higher propensity towards crime, yet have less crime. It is worthwhile to look at how, since the United States looks like these countries. The United States will never look like Sierra Leone or Switzerland, so what is the point of the comparison?

[dbucfan]

There are portions of the US that are demographically similar to UK and Germany, just as there are portions of the US demographically similar to Switzerland - you simply chose what you wanted and bent the info to your conclusion.  Neither example is perfectly aligned, more likely remotely aligned when one looks at the full breath of the US.   

[spartan]

Wasn't going to say anything as I thought we were getting back to the cherry picking argument.

[CBWx2]

There are portions of the US that are demographically similar to UK and Germany, just as there are portions of the US demographically similar to Switzerland - you simply chose what you wanted and bent the info to your conclusion.  Neither example is perfectly aligned, more likely remotely aligned when one looks at the full breath of the US.

There are way more portions of the UK and Germany that are demographically similar to the US than there are in Switzerland. To suggest that there is an equal amount of similarities in each country is being dishonest, spartan. The UK and Germany are not only more similar to the US than Switzerland, they also have a higher number of people demographically more inclined to commit crimes than the US, whereas Switzerland has among the least number of these indivials in all of Europe. You can't be serious in accusing me of cherry picking information here. You are the one ignoring huge chunks of relative information here.

[spartan]

Having been to all 4 countries and lived in 3 of them, I realize how off your comparisons are. The 'demographics' might look similar on paper, but culturally and socially all 4 of those are different. I would say some of the Germanic Cantons of Switzerland are not too dissimilar to Bavarian region of Southern Germany, but other than that they are all miles apart.

[Dolorous Jason]

Having been to all 4 countries and lived in 3 of them, I realize how off your comparisons are. The 'demographics' might look similar on paper, but culturally and socially all 4 of those are different. I would say some of the Germanic Cantons of Switzerland are not too dissimilar to Bavarian region of Southern Germany, but other than that they are all miles apart.

It appears you have real-life expierence , and Comrade is talking out of his ass again...

[CBWx2]

Having been to all 4 countries and lived in 3 of them, I realize how off your comparisons are. The 'demographics' might look similar on paper, but culturally and socially all 4 of those are different. I would say some of the Germanic Cantons of Switzerland are not too dissimilar to Bavarian region of Southern Germany, but other than that they are all miles apart.

And I suppose when you lived there you conducted studies the demographic makeup of each country?

This is a complete and total cop out argument, spartan. I have lived in the United States almost my entire life, and wouldn't suggest that I could tell you, for example, how New York City compares with San Francisco regarding crime or demographic makeup without actually studying the issue first.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of Swiss crime occurs in the same places as it does in Germany, the UK, and the US, in the heavily populated urban centers and among the areas of higher poverty. The primary difference is, Switzerland has far fewer of those places than those other countries do. In fact, as the move towards more urbanization is occurring in Switzerland, higher crime rates are coming with it.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Switzerland_loses_safest_country_accolade.html?cid=31023508

[spartan]

Having been to all 4 countries and lived in 3 of them, I realize how off your comparisons are. The 'demographics' might look similar on paper, but culturally and socially all 4 of those are different. I would say some of the Germanic Cantons of Switzerland are not too dissimilar to Bavarian region of Southern Germany, but other than that they are all miles apart.

And I suppose when you lived there you conducted studies the demographic makeup of each country?

This is a complete and total cop out argument, spartan. I have lived in the United States almost my entire life, and wouldn't suggest that I could tell you, for example, how New York City compares with San Francisco regarding crime or demographic makeup without actually studying the issue first.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of Swiss crime occurs in the same places as it does in Germany, the UK, and the US, in the heavily populated urban centers and among the areas of higher poverty. The primary difference is, Switzerland has far fewer of those places than those other countries do. In fact, as the move towards more urbanization is occurring in Switzerland, higher crime rates are coming with it.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Switzerland_loses_safest_country_accolade.html?cid=31023508

So how many "studies" have you conducted on the demographics of the USA? Because if you haven't made any "studies" you are not qualified to comment are you? Feel free to provide an example at any time.

But, if you like, live in a country, you get to understand the general social and cultural make up of a country and when you, like, live in a number of countries, you get a feel and understanding how different it was from, like, a country you used to live in. That might not qualify you as an expert, but I think it might just allow you to claim that you are making an informed decision instead of, like, talking out of your backside!

[VinBucFan]

LOL -  the (legitimate in my book) criticism of CBW is that he starts with a point of view and then molds the facts to support the point of view.  Ironic that on this subject so many are doing precisely that in opposition to CBW. 

[Durango 95]

Ah,,,,funny thing....That reminds of the pure fiction someone was trying to peddle earlier in thread when they were telling everyone how little crime existed in the UK and that the cops don't even carry guns.

Molding the facts to support their point of view, indeed.

[VinBucFan]

Ah,,,,funny thing....That reminds of the pure fiction someone was trying to peddle earlier in thread when they were telling everyone how little crime existed in the UK and that the cops don't even carry guns.

Molding the facts to support their point of view, indeed.

LOL ^^^^^^.  Like I said, ironic.

The UK has a nearly non-existent gun death rate (murder, accident and suicide) and a low murder rate (despite plenty of places with high poverty, low education,, nearly open immigration and diverse populations). The UK has a larger number of "assaults" and property crimes. (I think in another thread you tried to use assault stats to dilute the gun = death argument, so I guess you are recycling that here. I presume most are smart enough to see though it.)

 I lived in the UK until recently and the police officers do not generally carry guns. In fact, in the fall of 2012 two unarmed female police officers were killed by a career criminal using a gun. This led to many questions about whether UK police should carry guns. It was THE POLICE who spoke loudest that they did NOT want to carry guns.  At least in London, police officers are as much public service officers as law enforcement. They are out in large numbers at public events, but they are in with the crowd, part of the community, not armed security.

[Dolorous Jason]

LOL -  the (legitimate in my book) criticism of CBW is that he starts with a point of view and then molds the facts to support the point of view.  Ironic that on this subject so many are doing precisely that in opposition to CBW.

No. It's still the same old black hole ....you've jsut gone so batsh!t crazy that you actually agree with him now. That should scare you....

[olafberserker]

 I lived in the UK until recently and the police officers do not generally carry guns. In fact, in the fall of 2012 two unarmed female police officers were killed by a career criminal using a gun.

so the criminal still had a gun?   shocking

[Dolorous Jason]

 I lived in the UK until recently and the police officers do not generally carry guns. In fact, in the fall of 2012 two unarmed female police officers were killed by a career criminal using a gun.

so the criminal still had a gun?   shocking

How is this possible !!!!