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PewterReportMC

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: December 28, 2012, 12:20:24 PM

Despite Josh Freeman's recent struggles, the Buccaneers coaching staff appears firmly behind the former Kansas State star. Some fans who have given up on Freeman need to look not further than the Giants Eli Manning as an example of someone who may never develop into a Drew Brees, but is capable of bringing home a Lombardi Trophy.

http://www.pewterreport.com/index.php?option=com_k2&Itemid=20&view=item&layout=item&id=8670

BucBalla85

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#1 : December 28, 2012, 12:26:27 PM

I just want to see him with a decent defense and some more time in this system. I know he sucks right now but that can change. At least this buc fan feels he can. I mean he's 6'6 with a rocket arm. I know guys say there's something missing between the ears but he doesn't come across as "dumb" or anything. I think they can figure this out. They have to if they want to go where they want to go.

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#2 : December 28, 2012, 12:28:50 PM

I just want to see him with a decent defense and some more time in this system. I know he sucks right now but that can change. At least this buc fan feels he can. I mean he's 6'6 with a rocket arm. I know guys say there's something missing between the ears but he doesn't come across as "dumb" or anything. I think they can figure this out. They have to if they want to go where they want to go.
Being 6'6 with a rocket arm is great, but you're not always gonna complete a 30 yard pass on 3rd and 4.

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#3 : December 28, 2012, 12:33:15 PM

I know that. I'm just saying he can be better than he is. I'm not saying he can be one of those top guys in the league but he can be good enough. He can be a weapon and as long as he learns to be smart out there he can be a very good QB. Still he will miss some throws out there but he's gotta make the most of what he can. And I think he's capable of doing that. Just put some more work and experience there and figure it out.

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#4 : December 28, 2012, 12:38:49 PM

BUCS FANS NEED TO STAY PATIENT WITH FREEMAN

Patient? We've been patient. He's been given great weapons to work with (Martin, Jackson, Williams, Clark).  He's given plenty of time by his OL.  Look what other young QBs have shown with new OCs and new systems - they're burning things up.

Tired of Josh Freeman apologists.

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#5 : December 28, 2012, 12:39:25 PM

I personally feel we've been patient enough with Josh to know he's a guy we can win with.
Problem is we are as likely to lose because of him than we are to win because of him.
I'd much rather have a QB that is constantly medicocre than a guy who jumps between great & bad so much that he averages out at mediocre, at least you can build/plan around the steady guy.

Now is the time to be patient with the search for his replacement not Josh himself IMO.

Boid Fink

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#6 : December 28, 2012, 12:39:39 PM

Freeman is Freeman.  Manning is Manning.

Comparing the two is absurd.  There is no parallel, IMO.

They both do different things with different skillsets, and with differing offenses.

Freeman is an innaccurate, shaky QB who leaves plays dead on the field.

He is not good.


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#7 : December 28, 2012, 12:52:23 PM

Four years in and e argument for Freeman is that one other erratic QB got lucky so we should hold out hope.  How about the better argument that young QB can succeed early ( there are a lot more examples of that) that historically by year 4 a QB is who he is. This idea that Freeman needs time is silly.. He's got a ton of playing experience.  He's had a chance to settle in and be the guy and he hasn't shown he can be that guy.   I think there are 26 QBs in the league right now who can for sure do better than Freeman with what we've got. I'm not sure that guys like Fitzpatrick and Weedon to be honest couldn't do about the same here. When 4 years in my question isn't is my QB top 10 but his he bottom 5 you have a problem.


All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#8 : December 28, 2012, 01:07:51 PM

Four years in and e argument for Freeman is that one other erratic QB got lucky so we should hold out hope.  How about the better argument that young QB can succeed early ( there are a lot more examples of that) that historically by year 4 a QB is who he is.

I don't think any of this is true. Young QBs that succeed early (including Freeman) seem to struggle to duplicate that success as defenses get more and more tape on them. If RG3 or Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck improves next year, they will be exceptions, not the rule.

Drew Brees was given up on in year four. Steve Young had been given up on once and hadn't done anything through four years. Eli Manning was an erratic QB. Aaron Rodgers hadn't played. Rich Gannon was a sub-60% passer from 1987 all the way until 2000. Here are John Elway's stats before his best season in year 11:



Joe Montana threw for 2600 yards, 17 touchdowns and 11 interceptions in year four. I just think the statement that we historically know who a QB is by year four is absurd. Hell, the Lions still don't know if they have a 5000-yard, 40+TD QB in Stafford or whatever it is he's been this year. I think if anything, history supports being patient with Freeman, especially considering how young he is and his inexperience in the current scheme.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

BucDaFackUp

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#9 : December 28, 2012, 01:25:32 PM

Sorry Spoolios......your list to support your argument has holes.

1. Drew Brees given up on? No that GM is also the same guy that let Sproles, Michael Turner and most recently V-Jax walk...many suggest the GM's ego got in the way of negotiating. Brees had the shoulder problem and coincidentally they'd drafted a young cowboy named Philip Rivers as his potential replacement...what a concept.

2. Steve Young wasn't exactly playing with hall of famers but I won't debate that too heavily...I simply disagree with his usage here.

3. Aaron Rodgers hadn't played - this is an argument to support your position?

4. Rich Gannon is what would be considered a system QB (upper-tier manager) - he matured and became a good QB with the right system.

5. Elway and Montana were gods in college - they were given patience because many KNEW what they were capable of if a little patience was exercised.

In summary, Josh is NONE of those people...he is Josh....a wildly inaccurate QB with a penchant for going on streaks that make you believe he MIGHT be THE GUY. Personally I don't think he is and would be willing to start the search for his replacement post-haste!

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#10 : December 28, 2012, 01:26:07 PM

Four years in and e argument for Freeman is that one other erratic QB got lucky so we should hold out hope.  How about the better argument that young QB can succeed early ( there are a lot more examples of that) that historically by year 4 a QB is who he is.

I don't think any of this is true. Young QBs that succeed early (including Freeman) seem to struggle to duplicate that success as defenses get more and more tape on them. If RG3 or Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck improves next year, they will be exceptions, not the rule.

Drew Brees was given up on in year four. Steve Young had been given up on once and hadn't done anything through four years. Eli Manning was an erratic QB. Aaron Rodgers hadn't played. Rich Gannon was a sub-60% passer from 1987 all the way until 2000. Here are John Elway's stats before his best season in year 11:



Joe Montana threw for 2600 yards, 17 touchdowns and 11 interceptions in year four. I just think the statement that we historically know who a QB is by year four is absurd. Hell, the Lions still don't know if they have a 5000-yard, 40+TD QB in Stafford or whatever it is he's been this year. I think if anything, history supports being patient with Freeman, especially considering how young he is and his inexperience in the current scheme.
Problem is stats don't mean anything.
You offer up Joe Cool as an example for Freeman, did Josh help the Bucs go 13-3 and win a Super Bowl (MVP of the game) while having a Pro Bowl season last year like Joe did in year 3?
That type of year means that you get some more time to prove yourself, in the case of Josh we've ended the year on 10 & 6 (most likely) game losing streaks in years 3 & 4.
Plus Joe was a 3rd rounder not a mid 1st rounder so you would expect a little more time would be needed for results.
"The Catch" in the NFC Championship game came year 3 showing Joe had "IT" while Josh has shown he more than likely doesn't.
Lets not forget that year 4 of Montanas career was a strike shortened season that threw everything in the league out of whack, hell the Bucs were in the NFC Championship game.

Elways Broncos won at least 9 games his first 5 season and made the playoffs 4 times (missed year 3 with an 11-5 record) and played in a Super Bowl, he was also a Pro Bowler in year 4
What have the Bucs/Josh done that can be compared to that, lets not forget Joshs stats look far better because of all the rule changes aking it near impossible to play defense now.
: December 28, 2012, 01:31:26 PM TBTrojan

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#11 : December 28, 2012, 01:41:22 PM

My point was that none of those quarterbacks were close to a finished product in year four, just like Freeman isn't. Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl in his second season, but is a much better QB now, for instance.

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

TBTrojan

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#12 : December 28, 2012, 01:47:08 PM

My point was that none of those quarterbacks were close to a finished product in year four, just like Freeman isn't. Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl in his second season, but is a much better QB now, for instance.
Have you noticed what these QBs have in common, they were Super Bowl QBs and Pro Bowlers early (first 4 years), showing that the team could get the job done with them or they needed a change of scene to move on to the next level.
Josh hasn't even made the playoffs or sniffed the Pro Bowl and the team has won just 13 games combined during 3 of the 4 years he's been here (granted he only played half his rookie year so may have pulled off an extra 1 or 2 wins)
: December 28, 2012, 01:48:42 PM TBTrojan

BucDaFackUp

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#13 : December 28, 2012, 01:47:53 PM

My point is that each situation is unique. Just like Gerald McCoy isn't Warren Sapp but somehow has managed to conquer the doubts about him being successful at this level....

I'm of the opinion that Josh is not that guy that many would like him to be....he made it to the NFL so good for him but I highly doubt he'll be carrying any Lombardi trophies unless he gets signed as a back-up QB for a contender after he's let go here. If I'm wrong then it wouldn't be the first time or the last but I stand behind my opinion.

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#14 : December 28, 2012, 02:02:20 PM

Four years in and e argument for Freeman is that one other erratic QB got lucky so we should hold out hope.  How about the better argument that young QB can succeed early ( there are a lot more examples of that) that historically by year 4 a QB is who he is.

I don't think any of this is true. Young QBs that succeed early (including Freeman) seem to struggle to duplicate that success as defenses get more and more tape on them. If RG3 or Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck improves next year, they will be exceptions, not the rule.

Drew Brees was given up on in year four. Steve Young had been given up on once and hadn't done anything through four years. Eli Manning was an erratic QB. Aaron Rodgers hadn't played. Rich Gannon was a sub-60% passer from 1987 all the way until 2000. Here are John Elway's stats before his best season in year 11:



Joe Montana threw for 2600 yards, 17 touchdowns and 11 interceptions in year four. I just think the statement that we historically know who a QB is by year four is absurd. Hell, the Lions still don't know if they have a 5000-yard, 40+TD QB in Stafford or whatever it is he's been this year. I think if anything, history supports being patient with Freeman, especially considering how young he is and his inexperience in the current scheme.

Your excuses are ridiculous.  FREEMAN HAS STARTED 55 GAMES!!!  That's the point Dalbuc is making... it's the starts, not the years.  He just said years because he's gotten almost every start over that span.

San Diego gave up on Brees after 3 years... more like 2.  He only took 20 snaps his rookie season.  After playing the playing 2 seasons, that following April, they drafted Phillip Rivers.  They gave Drew Brees 27 starts before they pulled the plug.

Steve Young was given up on after 19 starts... hardly enough time to make a legit analysis.  San Fran never gave up on him at all, that's why they hung on to him for 5 years before he became the full time starter.

Eli Manning started his career just before the NFL became a truely passing league.  To compare his first 4 to Freeman's isn't really an even match.  Also, Eli was capable of winning games and having game winning drives against good teams.

After Rodgers first full season, you had a good feeling about him... after the 2nd, you knew.  Ever since he's been backing it up.  Freeman looked good in year 2... the other 40 starts... eh.

Rich Gannon?  Seriously?  Sure, let's wait another 8 more years with Freeman.

Elway's numbers are right on par with the upper end of QB's for his era.  Back then, a 55% completion PCT was considered fine... most QB's were in the 54-58% range.  This year, 19 QB's have completed 60%.  It's a different era.

LOL... Joe Montana 2600 yards, 17 TD's and 11 Int's.  Really?  HE PLAYED IN 9 GAMES!!!  In a strike shortened season, he was 2nd in the league in passing yards, tied for first in TD's, and his Int% was 6th.  Also, he was 7th in completion percentage.
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