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alldaway

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#30 : January 09, 2013, 02:20:20 PM

If this defensive scheme doesn't change then it is up to Freeman to carry this team.  Currently at this point in his career I don't think Freeman can do it.  Given Freeman has played with a bottom ranked defense ever since he has been here and he still produces wins shows he can play in this league but there are limits.  I don't think Brees/Manning can squeeze more than 8-9 wins out of this team if this defensive style persists.

The question remains is can he carry this team?  It is clear the defense will still be a weakness as it has been since ever the infamous 2008 collapse.  If Freeman is able to carry this team in 2013 despite a weak defense I would be impressed.

For Freeman to carry to the team he needs to be on the field longer. Multiple three-and-outs did not do our defense a favor. Also, the Manning statement isn't accurate. He carried the Colts even when they had a terrible defense.

Three and outs have no correlation with how good a defense can be.  Look no further than the 1999 or 2000 Bucs defense for some insight.  Pass defense doesn't become worse because of three outs, rather run defense should if a team is holding a lead for example. 

Manning had some semblance of help with the Colts defensively, as they generated pressures/sacks, turnovers in his tenure there, so the defenses he had to work with were not as inept as the ones we have witnessed back to back seasons thus far.  The 2011 defense set a record for ineptitude and the 2012 defense followed it up with another record of ineptitude.  Sorry, but I am not going to hang that on Freeman.

Freeman was tested this season to carry the team despite the ineptitude on defense and he didn't pass the test.  But it is clear that he will be tested once more.

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#31 : January 09, 2013, 02:32:02 PM

We did a decent job of shutting down one of the best passing offense in football that has 2 pro bowl level receivers and the best TE to ever play the game. That with a set of corners that will mostly not be active next year. I think the scheme is okay, the corners just have to continue to turn and try to make a play on the ball. Our LBers getting better in coverage over the middle will help a significant amount. We all forget about that but David was excellent in pass defense towards the end of the year.

Glad week 17 was such a great consolation prize for you. Guess the previous 15 games can be thrown out as evidence.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the Bucs ran a variation of the Tampa 2 in that ATL game, which is something that they did not run too much of throughout much of the season. Will have to rewatch and verify that.

Consolation prize? Sure. I don't know why everyone is down on consolation prizes.

My point is this. The defense we ran left our corners on islands all year. They got beat all year. This wasn't because they weren't in position to make plays, sure sometimes they were caught out of position mainly because they are back ups to the back up starting, but many other times they had decent coverage and couldn't turn and find the ball. Again this is not scheme, it's talent, it's ability.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Schiano is an egomaniac but he isn't. He is very strict but will adapt when it's clear the system, not the players, are the problem. Can you really sit here and say that our failures against the pass were the fault of the scheme and not the rookies and practice squad players we had starting?

Leonard Johnson
EJ Biggers
Lyron Lewis
Myron Lewis
Brandon McDonald

Gaitor instantly helped this pass defense when he came back.

You tell me what scheme you can/should run with this group of no names that would result in us being middle of the pack against the pass? Also understand that teams could NOT move the ball against us on the ground and were forced to throw. Okay, I'm listening.......
: January 09, 2013, 02:35:36 PM BucNY

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chace1986

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#32 : January 09, 2013, 02:56:38 PM

We did a decent job of shutting down one of the best passing offense in football that has 2 pro bowl level receivers and the best TE to ever play the game. That with a set of corners that will mostly not be active next year. I think the scheme is okay, the corners just have to continue to turn and try to make a play on the ball. Our LBers getting better in coverage over the middle will help a significant amount. We all forget about that but David was excellent in pass defense towards the end of the year.

Glad week 17 was such a great consolation prize for you. Guess the previous 15 games can be thrown out as evidence.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the Bucs ran a variation of the Tampa 2 in that ATL game, which is something that they did not run too much of throughout much of the season. Will have to rewatch and verify that.

Consolation prize? Sure. I don't know why everyone is down on consolation prizes.

My point is this. The defense we ran left our corners on islands all year. They got beat all year. This wasn't because they weren't in position to make plays, sure sometimes they were caught out of position mainly because they are back ups to the back up starting, but many other times they had decent coverage and couldn't turn and find the ball. Again this is not scheme, it's talent, it's ability.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Schiano is an egomaniac but he isn't. He is very strict but will adapt when it's clear the system, not the players, are the problem. Can you really sit here and say that our failures against the pass were the fault of the scheme and not the rookies and practice squad players we had starting?

Leonard Johnson
EJ Biggers
Lyron Lewis
Myron Lewis
Brandon McDonald

Gaitor instantly helped this pass defense when he came back.

You tell me what scheme you can/should run with this group of no names that would result in us being middle of the pack against the pass? Also understand that teams could NOT move the ball against us on the ground and were forced to throw. Okay, I'm listening.......

The problem last season did not just fall on the CBs. Nearly every player that was back in coverage, got abused. LBs, Safeties, CBs...all of them were equally at fault. People love to rag on Biggers, but he actually wasn't all that terrible this year. The pass defense was still bad when Gaitor came back. I can sit here and honestly say that it was scheme failures combined with inadequate talent in a few areas. That's where I stand.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

BucBalla85

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#33 : January 09, 2013, 03:09:57 PM

The LBs had some trouble in coverage but most do in this league. They could uprgrade at that position a bit as well. Black will be gone and if they could get somebody to either compete with Foster or take his job to slide him over then that could benefit the team. Especially if he is either a solid pass rusher/blitzer or solid in coverage. Question is who?

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#34 : January 09, 2013, 03:27:51 PM

Obviously there are going to be changes. Im sure the scheme will be tweaked and personnel will be added via the draft and free agency. This too will play into how much the scheme changes. Right now, were barely two weeks into the offseason. Give it some time.

Oh wait, that's an "excuse". I forgot that patience isn't acceptable to some forum members around these parts.

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#35 : January 09, 2013, 04:05:22 PM

We did a decent job of shutting down one of the best passing offense in football that has 2 pro bowl level receivers and the best TE to ever play the game. That with a set of corners that will mostly not be active next year. I think the scheme is okay, the corners just have to continue to turn and try to make a play on the ball. Our LBers getting better in coverage over the middle will help a significant amount. We all forget about that but David was excellent in pass defense towards the end of the year.

Glad week 17 was such a great consolation prize for you. Guess the previous 15 games can be thrown out as evidence.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the Bucs ran a variation of the Tampa 2 in that ATL game, which is something that they did not run too much of throughout much of the season. Will have to rewatch and verify that.

Consolation prize? Sure. I don't know why everyone is down on consolation prizes.

My point is this. The defense we ran left our corners on islands all year. They got beat all year. This wasn't because they weren't in position to make plays, sure sometimes they were caught out of position mainly because they are back ups to the back up starting, but many other times they had decent coverage and couldn't turn and find the ball. Again this is not scheme, it's talent, it's ability.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Schiano is an egomaniac but he isn't. He is very strict but will adapt when it's clear the system, not the players, are the problem. Can you really sit here and say that our failures against the pass were the fault of the scheme and not the rookies and practice squad players we had starting?

Leonard Johnson
EJ Biggers
Lyron Lewis
Myron Lewis
Brandon McDonald

Gaitor instantly helped this pass defense when he came back.

You tell me what scheme you can/should run with this group of no names that would result in us being middle of the pack against the pass? Also understand that teams could NOT move the ball against us on the ground and were forced to throw. Okay, I'm listening.......

The problem last season did not just fall on the CBs. Nearly every player that was back in coverage, got abused. LBs, Safeties, CBs...all of them were equally at fault. People love to rag on Biggers, but he actually wasn't all that terrible this year. The pass defense was still bad when Gaitor came back. I can sit here and honestly say that it was scheme failures combined with inadequate talent in a few areas. That's where I stand.

I'm fine with Biggers playing as well and I think if we added a guy like Milliner who could play #1, and get a consistent pass rush, we wouldn't be talking about scheme so much.

I'd like to see us draft Milliner (I think), use Biggers as a #2 and Leo Johnson as depth and Gaitor in the slot. FA signing of a FS.

Barron was improving, as was David in pass defense. That combo would set us up for a nice improvement. I'd be happy with 15th to 20th in the league against the pass. Teams aren't going run the ball 40 times a game against us because Schiano will make sure that's the one thing they cannot do. If we can be average in pass defense, it'll help a lot.

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#36 : January 09, 2013, 04:08:49 PM

Seriously doubt there will be any significant changes to the scheme.  First, Schiano is very stubborn.  It's funny how many people act like they've never met someone like him before in their lives.  He's not going to change his mind easily.  The real question is, how much will it take to change his mind?  That kind of stubbornness could very easily explain why a potentially good coach could never "get over the hump" in the Big East.  We're going to find out the answer to this question eventually.

Second thing, the scheme is one that accomplishes what he believes in philosophically -- stopping the run.  So any changes are much more likely to be on the margins.

Third is just that there really wasn't much adjustment in season.  We ran some really poorly designed blitzes all year long and we ran the same stunts that failed to leverage our player's strengths all year long.  Unless we did absolutely no self scouting during the season, there's no real reason to expect them to be identified as a problem in the offseason.  I think some of them will definitely be either scrapped or redesigned, but there is a lot of reason to worry that the failure of these plays will be ascribed to the players rather than the scheme.

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#37 : January 09, 2013, 04:18:10 PM

Some people are hard headed like that but have flexibility. Schiano could be one of those guys. Honestly I wouldnt hire anybody who was that hard headed with little to show for. Hopefully the Glazers are smart enough to know that. Even more so, hopefully Schiano knows this.

chace1986

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#38 : January 09, 2013, 04:22:34 PM

We did a decent job of shutting down one of the best passing offense in football that has 2 pro bowl level receivers and the best TE to ever play the game. That with a set of corners that will mostly not be active next year. I think the scheme is okay, the corners just have to continue to turn and try to make a play on the ball. Our LBers getting better in coverage over the middle will help a significant amount. We all forget about that but David was excellent in pass defense towards the end of the year.

Glad week 17 was such a great consolation prize for you. Guess the previous 15 games can be thrown out as evidence.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the Bucs ran a variation of the Tampa 2 in that ATL game, which is something that they did not run too much of throughout much of the season. Will have to rewatch and verify that.

Consolation prize? Sure. I don't know why everyone is down on consolation prizes.

My point is this. The defense we ran left our corners on islands all year. They got beat all year. This wasn't because they weren't in position to make plays, sure sometimes they were caught out of position mainly because they are back ups to the back up starting, but many other times they had decent coverage and couldn't turn and find the ball. Again this is not scheme, it's talent, it's ability.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Schiano is an egomaniac but he isn't. He is very strict but will adapt when it's clear the system, not the players, are the problem. Can you really sit here and say that our failures against the pass were the fault of the scheme and not the rookies and practice squad players we had starting?

Leonard Johnson
EJ Biggers
Lyron Lewis
Myron Lewis
Brandon McDonald

Gaitor instantly helped this pass defense when he came back.

You tell me what scheme you can/should run with this group of no names that would result in us being middle of the pack against the pass? Also understand that teams could NOT move the ball against us on the ground and were forced to throw. Okay, I'm listening.......

The problem last season did not just fall on the CBs. Nearly every player that was back in coverage, got abused. LBs, Safeties, CBs...all of them were equally at fault. People love to rag on Biggers, but he actually wasn't all that terrible this year. The pass defense was still bad when Gaitor came back. I can sit here and honestly say that it was scheme failures combined with inadequate talent in a few areas. That's where I stand.

I'm fine with Biggers playing as well and I think if we added a guy like Milliner who could play #1, and get a consistent pass rush, we wouldn't be talking about scheme so much.

I'd like to see us draft Milliner (I think), use Biggers as a #2 and Leo Johnson as depth and Gaitor in the slot. FA signing of a FS.

Barron was improving, as was David in pass defense. That combo would set us up for a nice improvement. I'd be happy with 15th to 20th in the league against the pass. Teams aren't going run the ball 40 times a game against us because Schiano will make sure that's the one thing they cannot do. If we can be average in pass defense, it'll help a lot.

Even though Biggers wasn't as bad as some think he was, I still think he should be nothing more than a #3 CB. We need a vet CB brought in as well as a high draft pick spent at the CB position. We could also use a 2nd or 3rd on a FS and that could help things for the future. Gaitor, LJ, and Biggers could be the 3-5 CBs. While Barron did slow down on the missed tackles at the end of the year, he still was mediocre-to-bad in coverage. Sure he ended the year with a PD, but that was essentially him putting whipped cream on a turd. Both Barron and David need to get better in coverage. Those two actually allowed 2 more TDs this year than the combo of LJ/Biggers(9 to 7). Hopefully they improve.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

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#39 : January 09, 2013, 04:43:48 PM

I really don't see the scheme changing,regardless of  whether or not it should, so hopefully an increase of talent in the secondary will be the cure.


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#40 : January 09, 2013, 06:43:48 PM

  Atl was not into that game at all.

this is one thing we can agree on.  who really thinks ATL wanted to win when they didnt even play matt ryan, tony G, julio, and roddy?

I lol'd


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#41 : January 09, 2013, 07:11:41 PM

I would love for somebody who's all in with "it's the scheme" to explain to me what three-headed pig with wings "scheme" they think we should toss out. And don't give me failed blitzes, failed line stunts, and one-on-one coverage on the outside with a single high safety because everybody (except the Bears) runs those type of defensive play calls. So what "scheme" is it that we should abandon, and in favor of what other "scheme"? So far, all of the "scheme" failures I keep reading about sound a lot like execution failures, both in on-field personnel and situational play-calling.

Interestingly, I was on the road and listening to the Falcons announcers and after many pass plays, they talked about the line stunts that the Falcons OL couldn't handle. So apparently, a defensive line stunt has not yet been completely negated by today's NFL offenses.

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#42 : January 09, 2013, 07:13:22 PM

Yes , we are going to see how the defense works with actual NFL caliber players in it ...imagine that.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#43 : January 09, 2013, 08:04:08 PM


For those of you who ridicule Schiano for his coaching background, the man was a HC for over a decade. He did not get fired. He made the choice to move on to bigger challenges. He left a program in much better shape than he found.
Rutgers is, and always was, an academic institution. They're in a conference known more for it's football factories. The fact that he never won a conference championship has much more to do with the players' credentials than his ability to coach. His players had to be literate. You can't equate ability with the level a coach competes.

What does all that mean? Why don't you compare Schiano to a great head coach, Jim Harbaugh. Both inherited bad programs. Both had to recruit players with very high academic standards. Now compare them. Why did Jim Harbaugh succeed with flying colors in the exact situation that Schiano was in? Why was Schiano unable to take his team over the hump? Schiano has always been an average coach. When compared to greatness, he falls very, very short of the mark.

On top of that, success in college doesn't equate to success in the NFL. Everything he accomplished in college means nothing anymore. Schiano is NOT a proven NFL coach. His scheme IS proven. It has been proven it won't work at the NFL level. If this defense doesn't change, you will have a repeat of this years failures next year. 



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#44 : January 09, 2013, 08:06:16 PM

Yes , we are going to see how the defense works with actual NFL caliber players in it ...imagine that.

Assuming you are talking about the secondary, is Talib NFl caliber? Wright? Barron? Barber? They couldn't do anything in this system. So, it has already been proven, but the homer fans are in denial.

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