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CaptainStagger

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#30 : January 14, 2013, 12:22:47 AM

The D-line can determine  who gets the most doubles by how they line up . Most 4-3 defenses stagger the line to free up thier best pass rushers .

Take a look at this picture , and tell me how it's possible to double the RE and the 3 tech  (Undertackle). One has to be free by sheer numbers, and in order to double just one of them requires the center or guard to move out of position , making the line susceptible to blitzes.



You can see why the nose tackle always draws so many doubles , even though he is less of a threat as a pass rusher. He lines up right in the center's grill and engages him. The Bucs did this for years to free up Warren Sapp.

This is why I laugh whenever fans suggest drafting nose tackles or Sam LB'ers high in the draft. Those guys are like the fullbacks of the defense. All they do is eat blockers for your playmakers.

Backward thinking at its best....You are halfway right...The NT's job is to eat blockers to free up the play makers.....it's just a shame that isn't happening. Two years running we are at the bottom of the barrel at rushing the passer, and our playmakers, Clayborn and McCoy are always fighting through doubles. Hence an elite NT would make a bigger impact then a rotational DE.

I'll agree to disagree but you go ask the Ravens if they regret taking Ngata 12 or if the Packers regret taking Raji at 9.
Last I checked both those teams were a bit more relevant, but if you want to laugh at them for drafting defensive "fullbacks" in the first round be my guest, but know you might be the only one in on the joke.
: January 14, 2013, 12:41:10 AM CaptainStagger


Dolorous Jason

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#31 : January 14, 2013, 07:26:10 AM

The D-line can determine  who gets the most doubles by how they line up . Most 4-3 defenses stagger the line to free up thier best pass rushers .

Take a look at this picture , and tell me how it's possible to double the RE and the 3 tech  (Undertackle). One has to be free by sheer numbers, and in order to double just one of them requires the center or guard to move out of position , making the line susceptible to blitzes.



You can see why the nose tackle always draws so many doubles , even though he is less of a threat as a pass rusher. He lines up right in the center's grill and engages him. The Bucs did this for years to free up Warren Sapp.

This is why I laugh whenever fans suggest drafting nose tackles or Sam LB'ers high in the draft. Those guys are like the fullbacks of the defense. All they do is eat blockers for your playmakers.

Backward thinking at its best....You are halfway right...The NT's job is to eat blockers to free up the play makers.....it's just a shame that isn't happening. Two years running we are at the bottom of the barrel at rushing the passer
Not backward at all, that's simply how a modern 4-3 scheme works.
We are bottom of the barrel simply because Clayborn , McCoy , and Bennett are not upper echelon pass rushers at this point in thier careers. Not even close.

As for Raji and Nata , the Packers and Ravens run a 3-4 .Totally different .

 We'd be stupid to draft a NT in the 1st round with all our more important needs.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#32 : January 14, 2013, 03:41:53 PM

Trading up for a DT would be beyond stupid.  Hell, I don't even like Richardson as much as most people.  I wouldn't even draft him if he fell to Tampa.

Agreed, if he falls we trade with someone who really wants/needs him.

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#33 : January 14, 2013, 03:59:32 PM

^^Good Thinking^^

dalbuc

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#34 : January 14, 2013, 05:02:32 PM

[

As for Raji and Nata , the Packers and Ravens run a 3-4 .Totally different .

 We'd be stupid to draft a NT in the 1st round with all our more important needs.

Correct.. In that 34 the NT is a  premier player. Ted Washington, Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, Ngata and Rajii  types are are all key cogs in those schemes. our NTs not so much.

again what do we want the DT we drafted to do? He's not gonna take the spot at UT from GMC so they won't be a pass rusher. Replacing a guy at NT does what? Makes our #1 run defense better?

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

Feel Real Good

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#35 : January 14, 2013, 05:05:28 PM

The D-line can determine  who gets the most doubles by how they line up . Most 4-3 defenses stagger the line to free up thier best pass rushers .

Take a look at this picture , and tell me how it's possible to double the RE and the 3 tech  (Undertackle). One has to be free by sheer numbers, and in order to double just one of them requires the center or guard to move out of position , making the line susceptible to blitzes.



You can see why the nose tackle always draws so many doubles , even though he is less of a threat as a pass rusher. He lines up right in the center's grill and engages him. The Bucs did this for years to free up Warren Sapp.

This is why I laugh whenever fans suggest drafting nose tackles or Sam LB'ers high in the draft. Those guys are like the fullbacks of the defense. All they do is eat blockers for your playmakers.

Backward thinking at its best....You are halfway right...The NT's job is to eat blockers to free up the play makers.....it's just a shame that isn't happening. Two years running we are at the bottom of the barrel at rushing the passer, and our playmakers, Clayborn and McCoy are always fighting through doubles. Hence an elite NT would make a bigger impact then a rotational DE.

I'll agree to disagree but you go ask the Ravens if they regret taking Ngata 12 or if the Packers regret taking Raji at 9.
Last I checked both those teams were a bit more relevant, but if you want to laugh at them for drafting defensive "fullbacks" in the first round be my guest, but know you might be the only one in on the joke.
DJ is right because ideally if your two best pass rushers are your RDE and 3-technique, you line them up in the under formation like pictured above so they can't be double-teamed. That's what the Bucs did for a decade with Sapp. However, for whatever reason, both the Morris and Schiano regimes have frequently lined up in the over formation with the pass rushing DT in a position to frequently get double-teamed.
: January 14, 2013, 05:14:26 PM Feel Real Good

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

Dolorous Jason

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#36 : January 14, 2013, 05:30:18 PM

The D-line can determine  who gets the most doubles by how they line up . Most 4-3 defenses stagger the line to free up thier best pass rushers .

Take a look at this picture , and tell me how it's possible to double the RE and the 3 tech  (Undertackle). One has to be free by sheer numbers, and in order to double just one of them requires the center or guard to move out of position , making the line susceptible to blitzes.



You can see why the nose tackle always draws so many doubles , even though he is less of a threat as a pass rusher. He lines up right in the center's grill and engages him. The Bucs did this for years to free up Warren Sapp.

This is why I laugh whenever fans suggest drafting nose tackles or Sam LB'ers high in the draft. Those guys are like the fullbacks of the defense. All they do is eat blockers for your playmakers.

Backward thinking at its best....You are halfway right...The NT's job is to eat blockers to free up the play makers.....it's just a shame that isn't happening. Two years running we are at the bottom of the barrel at rushing the passer, and our playmakers, Clayborn and McCoy are always fighting through doubles. Hence an elite NT would make a bigger impact then a rotational DE.

I'll agree to disagree but you go ask the Ravens if they regret taking Ngata 12 or if the Packers regret taking Raji at 9.
Last I checked both those teams were a bit more relevant, but if you want to laugh at them for drafting defensive "fullbacks" in the first round be my guest, but know you might be the only one in on the joke.
DJ is right because ideally if your two best pass rushers are your RDE and 3-technique, you line them up in the under formation like pictured above so they can't be double-teamed. That's what the Bucs did for a decade with Sapp. However, for whatever reason, both the Morris and Schiano regimes have frequently lined up in the over formation with the pass rushing DT in a position to frequently get double-teamed.

I'm guessing it's because the way our line currently is,  Bennett was our best pass rusher .  They probably felt freeing him up was more important than freeing up McCoy , who really doesn't excel at rushing the passer anyways.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

acacius

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#37 : January 14, 2013, 10:08:00 PM

While I'll admit that I don't watch enough ravens games to know how often they line up that way, I think it's worth noting that according to their depth chart, Ngata doesn't actually play NT for the Ravens.  Instead, they list Cody and Kemoeatu as their NTs.

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#38 : January 15, 2013, 08:56:43 AM

I'm guessing it's because the way our line currently is,  Bennett was our best pass rusher .  They probably felt freeing him up was more important than freeing up McCoy , who really doesn't excel at rushing the passer anyways.

Ah, the thought process of a simpleton.


Feel Real Good

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#39 : January 15, 2013, 09:02:48 AM

I'm guessing it's because the way our line currently is,  Bennett was our best pass rusher .  They probably felt freeing him up was more important than freeing up McCoy , who really doesn't excel at rushing the passer anyways.
Do you know how hard it was for me to say you were right about something and then you go and do this?
: January 15, 2013, 09:05:27 AM Feel Real Good

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

nybuccguy

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#40 : January 15, 2013, 09:58:15 AM

[

As for Raji and Nata , the Packers and Ravens run a 3-4 .Totally different .

 We'd be stupid to draft a NT in the 1st round with all our more important needs.

Correct.. In that 34 the NT is a  premier player. Ted Washington, Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, Ngata and Rajii  types are are all key cogs in those schemes. our NTs not so much.

again what do we want the DT we drafted to do? He's not gonna take the spot at UT from GMC so they won't be a pass rusher. Replacing a guy at NT does what? Makes our #1 run defense better?

We would want a NT who can disrupt more and consistently draw the double teams. That way we can push forward with our front four and maintain our run defense without using all the stunts and blitzes that killed our pass defense.

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#41 : January 15, 2013, 12:46:37 PM

I don't know that the NT really needs to draw double teams in this defense so much as he just needs to beat his man more, get more penetration, and add to the disruption factor.  If he can collapse the pocket a little more, it will lead to more sacks/int opportunities for others.

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#42 : January 15, 2013, 12:56:01 PM

I don't know that the NT really needs to draw double teams in this defense so much as he just needs to beat his man more, get more penetration, and add to the disruption factor.  If he can collapse the pocket a little more, it will lead to more sacks/int opportunities for others.

No.

Feel Real Good

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#43 : January 15, 2013, 12:57:47 PM

I don't know that the NT really needs to draw double teams in this defense so much as he just needs to beat his man more, get more penetration, and add to the disruption factor.  If he can collapse the pocket a little more, it will lead to more sacks/int opportunities for others.
It's absolutely essential either the NT or UT gets double teamed or else the center will take out the MLB on every play. The UT is a better pass rusher than NT so you want your NT to eat up two blocks so the UT only has to beat one blocker to get to the QB.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#44 : January 15, 2013, 03:56:48 PM

I agree that the NT getting the double team would be ideal, but opposing teams would be pretty dumb to double team Miller in pass pro and leave McCoy 1-1. Especially when most of our blitzes seem to come from the defenses right side, behind McCoy and Bowers.
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