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John Galt?

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« #120 : January 30, 2013, 11:59:49 AM »

What does having a market system have to do with whether or not a society is collectivist?


What does water have to do with something being wet????


CBWx2

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« #121 : January 30, 2013, 12:28:53 PM »

What does having a market system have to do with whether or not a society is collectivist?


What does water have to do with something being wet????

No, my friend. The type of economy a country has has zero to do with whether or not it is more or less collective than another society. One is an economic construct, the other is a social construct. What exactly do you think collectivism means?


spartan

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« #122 : January 30, 2013, 12:55:55 PM »

What does having a market system have to do with whether or not a society is collectivist?


What does water have to do with something being wet????

No, my friend. The type of economy a country has has zero to do with whether or not it is more or less collective than another society. One is an economic construct, the other is a social construct. What exactly do you think collectivism means?

Collectivism is any philosophic, political, religious, economic, or social outlook.

Kinda funny the guy who celebrates 'diversity' is a champion of the political and social paradigm that promotes a common social identity an purpose.

John Galt?

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« #123 : January 30, 2013, 02:28:00 PM »

What does having a market system have to do with whether or not a society is collectivist?


What does water have to do with something being wet????

No, my friend. The type of economy a country has has zero to do with whether or not it is more or less collective than another society. One is an economic construct, the other is a social construct. What exactly do you think collectivism means?


Well according to Merriam-Webster

a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution

and aren't  production and distribution economic principles??

I also found

collectivism
the socialist principle of control by the state of all means of productive or economic activity.

Wouldn't the control of economic activity be an economic principle??

Seems to me that "collectivism" is a Socio-economic term.


John Galt?

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« #124 : January 30, 2013, 02:48:27 PM »

The customary terminology misrepresents these things entirely. The philosophy commonly called individualism is a philosophy of social cooperation and the progressive intensification of the social nexus. On the other hand the application of the basic ideas of collectivism cannot result in anything but social disintegration and the perpetuation of armed conflict. It is true that every variety of collectivism promises eternal peace starting with the day of its own decisive victory and the final overthrow and extermination of all other ideologies and their supporters.

-Ludwig von Mises


Biggs3535

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« #125 : January 30, 2013, 04:42:08 PM »

Everybody else is wrong and I am right!  Let the circle-jerk commence!

Gonna be funny watching CBW run from this one.



CBWx2

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« #126 : January 30, 2013, 07:35:51 PM »

What does having a market system have to do with whether or not a society is collectivist?


What does water have to do with something being wet????

No, my friend. The type of economy a country has has zero to do with whether or not it is more or less collective than another society. One is an economic construct, the other is a social construct. What exactly do you think collectivism means?


Well according to Merriam-Webster

a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution

and aren't  production and distribution economic principles??

I also found

collectivism
the socialist principle of control by the state of all means of productive or economic activity.

Wouldn't the control of economic activity be an economic principle??

Seems to me that "collectivism" is a Socio-economic term.

That's fine and good, but it doesn't really answer the question of what having a market economy has to do with whether or not a society is collective. I am well aware that there are collectivist economic constructs, such as socialism, JG?. But you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is no such thing as a collectivist market economic construct. That is a false assumption. Market socialism is currently practiced in most European countries, and the Nordic model takes the concept of market socialism even further. These are economies that operate under the rules of a market system, yet are collectivist in nature

What you seem to be suggesting is a market economy is in actuality a free market, or laissez-faire economy. That is a type of market, not the definition of a market economy.
« : January 30, 2013, 07:38:43 PM CBWx2 »


spartan

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« #127 : January 30, 2013, 07:49:22 PM »

I am well aware that there are collectivist economic constructs

Well, you are now.

spartan

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« #128 : January 30, 2013, 07:53:17 PM »


That's fine and good, but it doesn't really answer the question of what having a market economy has to do with whether or not a society is collective. I am well aware that there are collectivist economic constructs, such as socialism, JG?. But you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is no such thing as a collectivist market economic construct. That is a false assumption. Market socialism is currently practiced in most European countries, and the Nordic model takes the concept of market socialism even further. These are economies that operate under the rules of a market system, yet are collectivist in nature

What you seem to be suggesting is a market economy is in actuality a free market, or laissez-faire economy. That is a type of market, not the definition of a market economy.

There isn't really. There are a number of collectivist societies that start out quasi market economy as a left over from the previous model, but they get squashed eventually. A market economy basically works on the principle (amongst others) that some people will succeed and others will not. The collectivist society eventually makes that impossible because of principles such as "fair share", "common good", "redistribution" and "investment."

CBWx2

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« #129 : January 30, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »

'Rugged individualism'... is only a masked attempt to repress and defeat the individual and his individuality. So-called Individualism is the social and economic laissez-faire: the exploitation of the masses by the [ruling] classes by means of legal trickery, spiritual debasement and systematic indoctrination of the servile spirit ... That corrupt and perverse 'individualism' is the straitjacket of individuality. ... [It] has inevitably resulted in the greatest modern slavery, the crassest class distinctions driving millions to the breadline. 'Rugged individualism' has meant all the 'individualism' for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking 'supermen.' ... Their 'rugged individualism' is simply one of the many pretenses the ruling class makes to mask unbridled business and political extortion.

-Emma Goldman


spartan

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« #130 : January 30, 2013, 08:36:35 PM »

Emma Goldman, such a wonderful counter argument. Anarchist and borderline Bolshevik.

Good job I am not a "Rugged Individualist." I am an exponent that if you look after the pennies, the dollars will look after themselves.

CBWx2

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« #131 : January 30, 2013, 08:44:52 PM »


That's fine and good, but it doesn't really answer the question of what having a market economy has to do with whether or not a society is collective. I am well aware that there are collectivist economic constructs, such as socialism, JG?. But you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is no such thing as a collectivist market economic construct. That is a false assumption. Market socialism is currently practiced in most European countries, and the Nordic model takes the concept of market socialism even further. These are economies that operate under the rules of a market system, yet are collectivist in nature

What you seem to be suggesting is a market economy is in actuality a free market, or laissez-faire economy. That is a type of market, not the definition of a market economy.

There isn't really.

Wrong. There really is. A market system is simply a system in which prices, investment, production, and distribution are based on supply and demand, rather than by central planning. You are unsurprisingly making the same assumptions that JG? is. You are attempting to redefine the term "market economy" to fit what your political inclinations want it to mean rather than what it actually means. Case and point:

A market economy basically works on the principle (amongst others) that some people will succeed and others will not. The collectivist society eventually makes that impossible because of principles such as "fair share", "common good", "redistribution" and "investment."

Market socialism, or in your words, "fair share", "common good", "redistribution" and "investment", doesn't affect any defining quality of what makes an economy a market economy. Those are things that affect concepts of ownership and profit allocation. They have absolutely no affect on supply, demand, pricing, investment, or trade.

Once again, you are suggesting that the only kind of market economy is a free-market economy. That is a 1000% false dichotomy. A free-market is a kind of market, not the only kind of market.






Dolorous Jason

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« #132 : January 30, 2013, 08:45:39 PM »

“Black holes are where God divided by zero.”

― Albert Einstein

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

CBWx2

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« #133 : January 30, 2013, 08:51:42 PM »

I am well aware that there are collectivist economic constructs

Well, you are now.

No. I always was. I was also always aware that this had nothing to do with JG?'s assertion. He phrased it along the premise that you were either a market economy or a collectivist economy. Market socialism is a collectivist market economic construct. There is no either/or, only the one manufactured by the two of you.





dbucfan

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« #134 : January 30, 2013, 08:57:46 PM »

I saw some goal lines a while back- seems the keep getting moved, or covered by straw droppings.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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