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jhop88

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#120 : January 16, 2013, 05:42:55 PM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

That's how the typical Buc fan thinks. Fire Freeman he is so bad!!! Then when you ask who to replace him with, they have a tough time finding someone who would be better. I mean if you're going to fire your 1st round QB, you better replace him with a guy who is significantly better.

Other than signing Tebow, or rolling the dice big time on a Geno Smith, there are no options for QB. QB is the biggest need for every team in the NFL. If people have even a serviceable QB, they do not let him go because even though Freeman might be in the middle of the pack, he is better than any replacement out there right now.

That's the truth, and don't fool yourself, the 2011 QB draft was a once in 10 years draft.

Why does it matter that he was drafted in the 1st round?

jhop88

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#121 : January 16, 2013, 05:45:02 PM

It blows my mind how people down play this so much. It's a system that 2 time Superbowl winning MVP Eli Manning said it took him numerous years to understand. Freehaters talk about how he can't get the playbook. That's not what Eli, Sully or Freeman is talking about. They all have the playbook memorized. The issue was, and if you really listened you heard it, that a pass play, the routes run, the adjustments can look different every time the play is run and requires different adjustments. So it's not that Freeman needs more time to memorize who is running the slant route and who is running the out. More time is needed for the Freeman, WR's, TE to consistently  make the same adjustments in half a second and for Freeman to be able to let it go before the WR is out of the break knowing the WR is going to be exactly where he should be.

We've seen Freeman throw a lot of picks in the league. Antonio Bryant was someone known for saying screw it I'm doing my own thing, K2 was a sloppy route runner and would drift on plays that required very accurate routes.

We started off slow, we figured it out and took off to a 6-4 mark, then we slowed back down. Anyone think why this happened? Freeman needed a few weeks to learn the system, he did and the offense exploded. The NFL adjusted to our offense and we dove back into the basement because the depth of the knowledge required to be able to adjust to the adjustments on the fly isn't there yet. So say what you want, Sully staying is exactly what Freeman and the Bucs needed to figure out what he is going to be.

If he does the same thing this year, you'll hear few complaints from rational posters on this board, so basically i'll stop saying we need to be patient.

thank you! finally someone who gets it. once they figured the basics out they took off and LED THE NFL in offense. i think the bolded part is a very interesting point. once the rest of the league figured it out they didn't have enough experience to adjust. they could very well have been trying to install new plays during the 1-5 slide to combat the adjustments made by their opponents and simply didn't have enough time to really master them. we don't know for sure

Yet the league didn't adjust to the offenses led by RG3 and Russell Wilson among others...interesting.

both of whom have been playing for one season, lets see if they duplicate that level of success next year. also, there has been tape on the giants offense for years, which is largely what sullivan runs. the rest of the league will catch up. its not if, but when. it should also be noted that RGIII, russell wilson, and kaepernick are all running modified versions of the pistol offense (the exact same one that kaepernick ran in college) that chris ault runs at nevada. its like any offensive system that gets introduced, it catches people off guard and works (e.g. the wildcat) but then the league adjusts. the pistol just happens to be better

What does them playing for one season have to do w/the league not being able to adjust to them yet, in the same post the excuse for Freeman's bad play is the league adjusted to him and this offense mid season? Uh, I see a disconnect here.

jhop88

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#122 : January 16, 2013, 05:50:22 PM

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

no doubt those 8 INTs exist, but thats where we differ. it seems to me lots of people see things very black and white on the freeman situation when in reality there are varying shades of grey. too much context is lost looking at things in such stark terms. and if that "context" gets labeled as excuses, so be it. labelling them as excuses doesnt change the fact that all these "what if's" significantly impact the way #5 is viewed and to an extent, dealt with. i use the secondary and the lack of o-line depth because those are two significant factors that led to this team losing games (along with freeman's play in a few games). you can call them excuses, but the reality is they are two issues that are realistically going to be addressed this offseason, and if done correctly should help this team win games, as well as reducing the pressure on freeman to win it himself (and make bonehead decisions in the process).

bottom line is if you step back, you can see that while freeman did contribute to this team's failures this season, he is hardly the team's biggest problem (not yet anyway). and IMO the positives as i can see them significantly outweigh the negatives of freeman's game, some of which are nitpicky at best. again, that's not to say he doesn't have his faults but QB is the least of their worries at this point.

Two things I don't understand.

1. If freeman was drafted by a team that already had a good defense (ie, the broncos), wouldn't it be safe to say that he would have had a better chance starting out of the gate?

The guy was forced to start after a failed season, had morris as a HC (which happened to start "me throw" instead of his first round pick), and has yet to even see the defense be close to even average his entire tenure. Now to me, all of this instability has led to, well... instability. An that's not even taking into account the new systems yearly.

2. The people attacking freeman apparently don't understand the team concept, or just don't get the idea that there were parts of the team that faired much, much worse than free. Is it wrong of me to want posters to mention the CB argument every time they open there free-hating mouth?

When will people go after the failures on this team?? Freeman is no failure, but those DB's sure are. Yeah, they get talked about, but most of the resentment goes towards freeman, and that isn't right.

Say it with me now everyone...... "the DB core is BAD! ...No QB with be able to win often with the defense that is this BAD on the PASS!"

(There. Now hopefully they remember.) ;)

The Skins defense gave up 15 less pass yds/game than the Bucs defense and they made the playoffs as a division winner and 4 seed.

The Pats defense gave up 26 less pass yds/game than the Buce defense and they made the playoffs as a division winner and 2 seed.

And for the kicker, the Packers defense gave up MORE passing yards (38 more on the year) last season than the Bucs did this season and they made the playoffs AS A DIVISION WINNER AND THE #1 SEED.

It's possible...as I've said over and over and over again...in today's NFL, it's easier to overcome bad defensive play than it is to overcome bad QB play.

Does it mean anything to you that we gave up more points per game than all of the above? You do understand that scoring defense is more important than passing defense, right? And if teams scored fewer points we would have won more games, true?

Does it mean anything to you that I was responding to this statement:

"Say it with me now everyone...... "the DB core is BAD! ...No QB with be able to win often with the defense that is this BAD on the PASS!"

Regardless, the Bucs D gave up .3 more PPG than Washington...yipppeeee!!!

chace1986

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#123 : January 16, 2013, 05:50:30 PM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

+1 People can whine all they want but there isn't one option better than Freeman that I have heard from any poster. I would love to hear some, not trolling, I actually would.

You already would have , if they existed . They don't...

You know this how?

So there isn't a QB in the upcoming draft that will be better than Freeman?

Alex Smith on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman? Matt Flynn on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman? Matt Moore on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman?

I don't know if they would or wouldn't, but don't sit there and act like there's nothing better out there.

The QBs from the draft are more likely to produce a QB who could be better on this team than the other three options named.

With Alex Smith, the ceiling seems to be much lower, and I'm not so sure he would be a championship QB. Sure, he played excellent in the playoffs last year and San Fran certainly can't place much of any blame on him for the loss against NYG...I just don't know how much long term success he would bring, and how it would be any different than Freeman. Flynn is basically unknown, but I think it speaks volumes that he lost the QB competition rather quickly to Russell Wilson. There was much growth by Wilson throughout the year and January Russell Wilson was not that same as August Russell Wilson. Matt Moore, we know he sucks.

Overall point. I agree with. There is no way to say that none of the QBs in the draft will be successful or some other QBs in the league like Smith or maybe even a guy with potential in Ryan Mallet.

Freeman will be the QB in '13, and will have his shot to prove his doubters wrong. It would be great if he did, if not...the '14 draft could be our best option at finding a replacement.


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

jhop88

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#124 : January 16, 2013, 05:55:49 PM


i can't believe these clowns keep bringing up the "franchise records" nonsense. I was thinking about this last week...is their a franchise in football w/absolutely ZERO franchise, elite, etc QBs in their history? Of the top of my head, the only 3 I could think of one are Carolina, Detroit and the Bucs. People need to stop throwing the "franchise record" garbage around as if it actually means something w/this franchise.

Sure, being better than Vinny does not make Freeman an elite QB. But this franchise desperatly looked for an elite QB and Freeman is the closest the got in 40 years.
It shows how this 'we will draft a QB in 2013 or 2014 to replace Freeman'  might not work out. Its not like we would even have the name of his replacement yet. You think a unknown would be better than Freeman? But Freeman is better than any QB we drafted so far.

Yes we COULD get a better QB than Freeman in 2013 or 2014, just Freeman does not keep us from drafting him. Letting him play, maybe extending him, does not cost one single draft pick. Trading him now actually nets us more draft picks. So pretty much everyone you try to birng in here as his replacement, my scenario can do aswell, maybe even more easily by trading Freeman NOW, when still has value for us.
Is Geno Smith better than Freeman? Will Johnny Fottball be in 2014? You are sure we can get him in 2014, does he stay one more year, is he injured, will he go #1 overall? Atleast this would be a plan, but this pipe dream of a unknown QB being better than Freeman is BS. Freeman being the franshise leader just exposes your blind faith in getting a better QB anytime soon by nothing but playing lottery.

Of course it might not work out, but there's also a chance it would work out. PIcking a QB in the draft is usually "playing the lottery." That being said, as I already mentioned, there is a very good chance there is at least 1 QB in this draft who will end up being a better QB than Josh Freeman.

jhop88

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#125 : January 16, 2013, 06:02:32 PM

i can't believe these clowns keep bringing up the "franchise records" nonsense. I was thinking about this last week...is their a franchise in football w/absolutely ZERO franchise, elite, etc QBs in their history? Of the top of my head, the only 3 I could think of one are Carolina, Detroit and the Bucs. People need to stop throwing the "franchise record" garbage around as if it actually means something w/this franchise.
The best QB's in franchise history include three different Super Bowl winners, three different players who have been to the Pro Bowl, one player in the Ring of Honor, and one who is in the top 10 for passing yards in NFL history. Not a bad group in my opinion.

Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson?

jhop88

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#126 : January 16, 2013, 06:06:19 PM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

+1 People can whine all they want but there isn't one option better than Freeman that I have heard from any poster. I would love to hear some, not trolling, I actually would.

You already would have , if they existed . They don't...

You know this how?

So there isn't a QB in the upcoming draft that will be better than Freeman?

Alex Smith on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman? Matt Flynn on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman? Matt Moore on this team wouldn't be better than Freeman?

I don't know if they would or wouldn't, but don't sit there and act like there's nothing better out there.

The QBs from the draft are more likely to produce a QB who could be better on this team than the other three options named.

With Alex Smith, the ceiling seems to be much lower, and I'm not so sure he would be a championship QB. Sure, he played excellent in the playoffs last year and San Fran certainly can't place much of any blame on him for the loss against NYG...I just don't know how much long term success he would bring, and how it would be any different than Freeman. Flynn is basically unknown, but I think it speaks volumes that he lost the QB competition rather quickly to Russell Wilson. There was much growth by Wilson throughout the year and January Russell Wilson was not that same as August Russell Wilson. Matt Moore, we know he sucks.

Overall point. I agree with. There is no way to say that none of the QBs in the draft will be successful or some other QBs in the league like Smith or maybe even a guy with potential in Ryan Mallet.

Freeman will be the QB in '13, and will have his shot to prove his doubters wrong. It would be great if he did, if not...the '14 draft could be our best option at finding a replacement.

I agree that a QB from this draft is more likely to produce a better option so do you think they should draft a QB?

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#127 : January 16, 2013, 06:12:47 PM

Who knows Jhop and Chase. Maybe they got their eye on somebody in this draft. Well find out.

jhop88

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#128 : January 16, 2013, 06:16:44 PM

Who knows Jhop and Chase. Maybe they got their eye on somebody in this draft. Well find out.

I wish I watched more Cuse games cuz I keep hearing Nassib's name.

I do like Glennon, but I think he goes in the 1st round.

chace1986

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#129 : January 16, 2013, 06:25:19 PM

The QBs from the draft are more likely to produce a QB who could be better on this team than the other three options named.

With Alex Smith, the ceiling seems to be much lower, and I'm not so sure he would be a championship QB. Sure, he played excellent in the playoffs last year and San Fran certainly can't place much of any blame on him for the loss against NYG...I just don't know how much long term success he would bring, and how it would be any different than Freeman. Flynn is basically unknown, but I think it speaks volumes that he lost the QB competition rather quickly to Russell Wilson. There was much growth by Wilson throughout the year and January Russell Wilson was not that same as August Russell Wilson. Matt Moore, we know he sucks.

Overall point. I agree with. There is no way to say that none of the QBs in the draft will be successful or some other QBs in the league like Smith or maybe even a guy with potential in Ryan Mallet.

Freeman will be the QB in '13, and will have his shot to prove his doubters wrong. It would be great if he did, if not...the '14 draft could be our best option at finding a replacement.

I agree that a QB from this draft is more likely to produce a better option so do you think they should draft a QB?

I keep sifting through the QBs and I'm still not too enamored with any of them. It's an odd year. Usually we would have a guy or two that have separated themselves from the pack. While Geno and Barkley seem to be the present top 2 QBs, I honestly don't see too much separation from them and Mike Glennon, Tyler Wilson, Ryan Nassib, and Zach Dysert. In fact, I would say that if a successful QB comes from this class, it will come from that second group of names I mentioned.

Based upon how we have seen teams reach for QBs in previous draft, I don't think that it's inconceivable to see 3 or 4 QBs selected in the first. So we definitely aren't going to use a pick on one of those guys. Then you have the 2-3 guys that will be on the board when we pick in the second. I dunno. I think there will still be a lot of other talent out there that can improve the secondary or help out with another weapon on offense. So I don't think we take a QB in the 2nd unless one of those 4 fall to the late second and we decide to jump back in and grab a Wilson or Nassib. I think they will all be gone by the 3rd.

Based upon the above, I would probably wait. I mean, I probably wouldn't be too upset if they drafted one of those guys after Barkley/Geno, but I do understand that we need to fill some pretty big holes on this team and that can be done with that 2nd rounder currently in our possession. So, I would wait, see how Freeman does..and if he stinks again, let him walk. Then we load up and try to grab a guy like Aaron Murray at the top of next years draft.
: January 16, 2013, 06:27:55 PM chace1986


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

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#130 : January 16, 2013, 06:45:40 PM


Of course it might not work out, but there's also a chance it would work out. PIcking a QB in the draft is usually "playing the lottery." That being said, as I already mentioned, there is a very good chance there is at least 1 QB in this draft who will end up being a better QB than Josh Freeman.

That there is a chance of getting a better QB wont get us a better QB.
We wont look back in a few years and say it was the right move to draft a QB, because there was a 65.43% to get a better QB than Freeman. We either are one of 65.43% and got a better one or we did not. They way 'fans' go beserk about being doomed by Freeman just proves this even more.
Look back, there are draft classes that did not have one single QB better than Freeman, some had but those QBs went so early you can not call 'em 'available'. Do you really think we can get Johnny Football? Maybe the team picking in front of us just refuses to trade down.
Dom tried to get a QB in 2009, and ended up with Freeman. Why do you believe Dom can do something this franchise seemed to have never done in 40 years, getting an elite QB to play here? Freeman being the franchise leader just proves this. But if you think this means Freeman IS an elite Qb, you are wrong.

I do not buy this we can get a better QB than Freeman so lets try, play lottery, ignore improving the rest of the team. I want 'draft Geno Smith'(or what ever QB YOU else like), because he is better than the QB we have right now, as it looks he is called J Freeman.
I do not care about Freeman, not even a bit, i want this TEAM to win a few PO games. Aslong there is no one better than him available i want this team to start Freeman. If there is anyone better than him available, get him, and move Joshs ass out of this city.

Indy picked Luck over Peyton, GB started Rodgers over Favre, SEA drafted Wilson, despite having traded for Flynn, WAS drafted Cousion despite just having drafted RG3. In case of SEA and Was i guess they just played lottery, hoping atleast one of their Qb would be any good. Still they rated REAL QB, with real names, real careers. They did not just play lottery, thinking next years draft SHOULD have atleast one better QB. We can still draft QBs while having Freeman on the roster.
To get a better QB/player than your current one should always be your credo, you do not have to wait until your current QB  'sucks', what ever this means in the case of Freeman anyway. Teams like Indy and GB did exactly this and i like their future.

Never heard of do not draft for needs, draft the best available. No clue why you want to make QB a need. We can still get almost any QB if wanted to. With a better defense a QB like Peyton might even consider coming here instead of Denver.
If your plan is to go 0-16 until a guy like Peyton or Luck enter the NFL draft, i'm not sure if i want to go this way. Else Freeman does not hurt us.

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#131 : January 16, 2013, 06:57:53 PM


 " I do not buy this we can get a better QB than Freeman so lets try, play lottery, ignore improving the rest of the team. "

Well, those are the only two options.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#132 : January 16, 2013, 09:14:03 PM

i can't believe these clowns keep bringing up the "franchise records" nonsense. I was thinking about this last week...is their a franchise in football w/absolutely ZERO franchise, elite, etc QBs in their history? Of the top of my head, the only 3 I could think of one are Carolina, Detroit and the Bucs. People need to stop throwing the "franchise record" garbage around as if it actually means something w/this franchise.
The best QB's in franchise history include three different Super Bowl winners, three different players who have been to the Pro Bowl, one player in the Ring of Honor, and one who is in the top 10 for passing yards in NFL history. Not a bad group in my opinion.

Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson?

Some guy named Steve Young was a Buccaneer QB ... HOF'er last I checked.
: January 16, 2013, 09:16:54 PM Fire Mark Dummynik

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#133 : January 16, 2013, 09:31:45 PM

Never thought of Dilfer as a qb - my bad...




JK - gotcha Java

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#134 : January 16, 2013, 09:35:35 PM

Who knows Jhop and Chase. Maybe they got their eye on somebody in this draft. Well find out.





Can't wait until they pull the trigger on Geno with the #13 pick.  This board will implode for a week straight.


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PewterReportMC....
\\\\\\\"Java, do you understand this a perfect example of why people beg me to suspend or ban you on a daily basis? Are you actually trying to make a point? Seriously what is the reason for even commenting. In fact why do you even bother coming to the boards? What happened to the intelligent poster from years ago?  A real shame. Like the Bucs yesterday, a wasted effort.\\\\\\\"
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