Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Mike Sullivan to stay with Buccaneers « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 ... 10

NotDeadYet

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 6790
Offline
« #15 : January 15, 2013, 10:51:07 AM »

   I did read McCoy saying he's accepted the Chargers HC position, so that's 1 less chance Sullivan leaves... ;D

QaZ

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 2001
Offline
« #16 : January 15, 2013, 10:58:37 AM »

Awesome.....one less excuse for the Freepologists.

I would not mind a new OC, if this would make this team win a few more games, for instance by handing the play books of our opponents next season to our DC. I could live with those kind of 'excuses'.
But if your goal is just to prove that Freeman is not good enough to win with a average/bad team, keep trolling.
I want my TEAM to win a few PO games sooner or later. I do not know how a worse Freeman helps here, even if we just raise his trade value by surrounding him by a good team.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 13372
Offline
« #17 : January 15, 2013, 10:59:23 AM »

this could quite possibly be the most important (non) move of the offseason. those who take a negative POV on freeman aren't giving enough credence to the fact that it was his 3rd offensive system in 4 years, and he still put up the numbers he did. yeah there were a lot of picks and bad throws, and i saw them just like all of you, but it's a known fact that sullivan's offense is complex and requires the QB and his receivers to be thinking the EXACT same thing. quite obviously, freeman and his receivers weren't. but i'm fairly confident that another offseason of practice and finally some offensive continuity will fix a lot of those bad decisions. 

i really think the 1-5 finish is still impairing a lot of people's view of the big picture. which is even with that **CENSORED**ty slide to finish the season freeman put up single-season franchise records for yards (4,065), TD's (27), is now the franchise leader in career TD's (78), AND the team was the highest scoring group in team history (389 points). i guess the superb level of QB play this franchise has enjoyed for the last 37 years has spoiled everyone. dude is only 24 and is re-writing the record books, but if he's not "elite" after 4 years, not perfect on every throw, well then he's a donkey.


The 1-3 start and the 1-5 finish should have given some insight on what an inconsistent player the QB is. We keep hearing about how complex the system is, and how our 4th year QB can't quite get a full grip on it....well if that's the case then the coaching staff should have dumbed it down like the staffs of the 49ers, Seahawks, Colts, and 'Skins have with their young QBs. Freeman being in the first year of an offensive system has little to do with his terrible mechanics and inaccuracy.

The franchise records are irrelevant. As you stated sarcastically about the "superb" play from previous QBs in this franchise....that shows that the franchise history when it comes to offense is pitiful. So the fact that franchise passing records are being broken in a league that currently revolves around the passing game, it really isn't that big of a deal. He is now 25 and he is re-writing records that mean zilch.

i see where you're coming from, but in this particular system it has everything to do with his perceived inaccuracy. if freeman and his receivers see the coverage and don't react the exact same way, #5 is going to look pretty inaccurate if his intended target goes in the opposite direction. i'm not here to make excuses, and granted freeman was never the most accurate passer, but in an offense that is based on options you have to be on the same page or else you look like an idiot. i think its more freeman making bad decisions and not having that mental connection (yet) with his receivers than him not being able to hit the broad side of a barn

every bucs fan should read this article about kevin gilbride's offense, because its what we run and it explains exactly what i've been trying to say. here are some key points:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/kevin-gilbride-option-offense-passing-game-fuels-ny-giants-article-1.1013448
Quote
The hands clap and the huddle breaks and the receivers jog out to their positions. Kevin Gilbride has already relayed the play to Eli Manning, but the receivers still have no idea where they’re going to go.
That’s part of the beauty of the Gilbride offense. Everything the receivers do is based on what happens next. Is there man-to-man coverage or a zone? Which way are the safeties shading? Are the corners pressing on the line or leaving a cushion?

Then, when the ball is snapped and the defense goes in motion, everything could change...again.
“Yeah, it’s definitely tough,” says receiver Victor Cruz. “It’s one of the biggest things I had to adjust to, learning how to read coverages and adjust mid-route. We had a few read-routes in college, but nothing to this extent where it’s 15 yards down field and you have to make an adjustment. Sometimes they may line up one way, then when the ball comes they move to somewhere else. So you have to see all of that.”
It’s a demanding system. It can be confusing. It can be frustrating, too, especially to a young player. It’s also explosive, “quarterback-friendly,” potent, and the most prolific offensive system the Giants franchise has ever seen.
“That’s the beauty of it,” says backup quarterback David Carr. “When we’re rolling, it’s hard to stop.”
That’s what the 60-year-old Gilbride has created in his eighth season with the Giants and fifth since taking over as the offensive coordinator. He’s helped turn Eli Manning from an erratic, interception-prone quarterback into a near-5,000-yard passer. He’s built an offensive machine that has rallied from six fourth-quarter deficits this year. It can strike so quickly, the Giants never feel like they’re out of a game.
Quote
What makes Gilbride appear pass-happy is this: He runs what everyone considers a “quarterback-friendly” offense that puts a lot of responsibility on the receivers and control in the quarterbacks’ hands. They throw because they can. And it works.
“A lot is asked of the quarterback,” Carr says. “You’ve got the freedom to do pretty much whatever you want. The playbook’s open to you. You’ve got to be on your game. But if you are, it’s a great thing.”
Explained very simply, Manning has the ability to change the play to almost anything in that week’s game plan, based on what he sees in the defensive alignment. And when he calls a pass play, the receivers have several options to change their routes on each play, depending on what the defense does. It’s complicated and hard to learn, and it can be very tricky for the quarterback and receiver to make sure they’re seeing exactly the same thing out of each defender.
Because there are so many options in Gilbride’s offense, though, when it’s run correctly there are more chances for it to work.
“You give the receivers several options to get open and when guys get open you, as a quarterback, have an opportunity to throw the ball,” Palmer says. “When a receiver doesn’t get open, that becomes a burden. It’s reassuring to the quarterback that ‘Hey, one of these guys are going to get open.’ I would say on most plays there’s going to be a guy that’s open in this offense.”
“I’ve been in offenses where it’s all based on progressions - 1, 2, 3, find the back,” Carr adds. “There’s some of that. But we’re trying to scheme. We’re trying to find the best possible play vs. that defense at that time to just gash them. That’s why it works.”

I can understand this argument and there are certainly incompletions that are the result of not being on the same page. BTW, that's Gilbride. How can we be so sure that Sullivan is doing everything 100% by the Gilbride book?

I'm more speaking of the throws where he is throwing to a WR that is already in their specific area and Freeman just flat out misses them. There were plenty of times where Freeman just flat out overthrew his WRs. I think to blame most of Freeman's incompletions on the system as opposed to the player...well...I disagree.


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

BucBalla85

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 18439
Offline
« #18 : January 15, 2013, 11:03:16 AM »

The one thing the "freepologists" got right is that Freeman will get another shot at this thing. Its his job to lose. If he has a great offseason and carries that into the season, he will get his extension and will be our starter for a while. Anybody hoping that doesnt happen?? Im sure its not only the "freepologists" that want to see him succeed here.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 13372
Offline
« #19 : January 15, 2013, 11:06:21 AM »

The one thing the "freepologists" got right is that Freeman will get another shot at this thing. Its his job to lose. If he has a great offseason and carries that into the season, he will get his extension and will be our starter for a while. Anybody hoping that doesnt happen?? Im sure its not only the "freepologists" that want to see him succeed here.

Pretty much everyone is saying that, excuse makers, or not.


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

BucBalla85

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 18439
Offline
« #20 : January 15, 2013, 11:10:13 AM »

Still a fact regardless of how much we bash him this offseason. Its meaningless. Dude could come out next season and be awesome. Hopefully thats the case.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 13372
Offline
« #21 : January 15, 2013, 11:20:01 AM »

Still a fact regardless of how much we bash him this offseason. Its meaningless. Dude could come out next season and be awesome. Hopefully thats the case.

The fact is, very few are "bashing" him. The thing that is happening, is that people are refusing to allow BS excuses to be thrown around to sugarcoat the QBs performance. Overall, Freeman didn't completely suck, but he wasn't great either. There were plenty of deficiencies on the this team in '12, but that doesn't make Freeman blameless. You are mistaking criticism for bashing. A lot of the criticism arises when people try to act like Freeman did everything right and the rest of the team is to blame. Yes, there are some that will come out and say that he without a doubt, completely sucks...but that isn't most people. It is actually very few.
« : January 15, 2013, 11:21:54 AM chace1986 »


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

QaZ

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 2001
Offline
« #22 : January 15, 2013, 11:39:16 AM »

Still a fact regardless of how much we bash him this offseason. Its meaningless. Dude could come out next season and be awesome. Hopefully thats the case.

...A lot of the criticism arises when people try to act like Freeman did everything right and the rest of the team is to blame.

LMAO, thats exactly what this is all about, right? Freeman getting too much love by the apologist? Thanks for your work to this community, not letting the Freeman lovers take over this place, so we maybe do not make the same mistake passing on Peyton or Luck again. Yeah, that was stupid by 'em.
Without you enlighten me i prolly would still be thinking Freeman deserves the MVP in all of the last 4 years, if just his team would not have let him down.

BucNY

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 7783
Offline
« #23 : January 15, 2013, 11:48:39 AM »

It blows my mind how people down play this so much. It's a system that 2 time Superbowl winning MVP Eli Manning said it took him numerous years to understand. Freehaters talk about how he can't get the playbook. That's not what Eli, Sully or Freeman is talking about. They all have the playbook memorized. The issue was, and if you really listened you heard it, that a pass play, the routes run, the adjustments can look different every time the play is run and requires different adjustments. So it's not that Freeman needs more time to memorize who is running the slant route and who is running the out. More time is needed for the Freeman, WR's, TE to consistently  make the same adjustments in half a second and for Freeman to be able to let it go before the WR is out of the break knowing the WR is going to be exactly where he should be.

We've seen Freeman throw a lot of picks in the league. Antonio Bryant was someone known for saying screw it I'm doing my own thing, K2 was a sloppy route runner and would drift on plays that required very accurate routes.

We started off slow, we figured it out and took off to a 6-4 mark, then we slowed back down. Anyone think why this happened? Freeman needed a few weeks to learn the system, he did and the offense exploded. The NFL adjusted to our offense and we dove back into the basement because the depth of the knowledge required to be able to adjust to the adjustments on the fly isn't there yet. So say what you want, Sully staying is exactly what Freeman and the Bucs needed to figure out what he is going to be.

If he does the same thing this year, you'll hear few complaints from rational posters on this board, so basically i'll stop saying we need to be patient.

\\\\\\\"This forum needs a poster like BucNY now more than ever\\\\\\\"
      - Everyone

BucBalla85

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 18439
Offline
« #24 : January 15, 2013, 11:52:22 AM »

Should be another long offseason haha.

TampaBucks05

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2270
Online
« #25 : January 15, 2013, 11:56:30 AM »

There is a god. And he likes the Bucs.


Biggs3535

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 31576
Offline
« #26 : January 15, 2013, 11:59:13 AM »

this could quite possibly be the most important (non) move of the offseason. those who take a negative POV on freeman aren't giving enough credence to the fact that it was his 3rd offensive system in 4 years, and he still put up the numbers he did.

I'm sick of this tired excuse.  Freeman was the 4th QB at best during the time when Jagz was the OC.  That's a B/S excuse.


BucBalla85

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 18439
Offline
« #27 : January 15, 2013, 12:03:30 PM »

Whats funny is that I dont even think of them as "excuses" (age, second year in system, bad coaching early in his career) but as realistic reasons for why he could turn his game around. Call me the "excuse man" all you want but they are legit reasons for why the guy could turn his game around.

big_JLB

****
Starter

Posts : 771
Offline
« #28 : January 15, 2013, 12:04:44 PM »

I can understand this argument and there are certainly incompletions that are the result of not being on the same page. BTW, that's Gilbride. How can we be so sure that Sullivan is doing everything 100% by the Gilbride book?

I'm more speaking of the throws where he is throwing to a WR that is already in their specific area and Freeman just flat out misses them. There were plenty of times where Freeman just flat out overthrew his WRs. I think to blame most of Freeman's incompletions on the system as opposed to the player...well...I disagree.

i'm sure that he hasn't copped gilbride's system 100%, but being privy to the giants offense, and kevin gilbride's in particular for nearly 4+ years  i would have to assume that he's incorporated a fair bit of that offensive philosophy into his own....which is why i hope they sign david carr this offseason, to help #5 with all the little details

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/tampa-bay-buccaneers-oc-mike-sullivan-found-breaking-ny-giants-hard-article-1.1160591
Quote
That’s why, after eight years as Coughlin’s assistant on the Giants — the last two as Eli Manning’s quarterbacks coach — the 45-year-old Sullivan decided to take the challenge of running his own offense with the Bucs.
And yes, when the Giants see Sullivan’s team in action at the Meadowlands on Sunday the scheme should look awfully familiar. When Giants receiver Hakeem Nicks saw it on film this week he said, “It’s our offense.”
And he’s right, Sullivan said. From the plays to the terminology to the philosophy, a lot of it is the same.
“There’ll be some carryover,” Sullivan said. “But we try to put our own stamp on things. There’s always a few things where as assistant coach you think, ‘Well I’d like to change this component or try this new idea.’ Everywhere you go as coach you’re going to pull things from certain places and mold it into your own philosophy. We try to do some things that are unique to us.”

as for freeman missing receivers that are where they're supposed to be, he was never the most accurate passer so i'm not going to be up in arms over that. if you want to talk about how he stares down his primary target or doesn't move past the LOS then i'll agree, he's a donkey when it comes to those things. but i think billick had it right when he said his problem is not so much accuracy as it is decision making...which can only get better as both he and his receivers have some systematic continuity.

even during the 1-3 start the only really bad game he had was vs. dallas, then he didn't have another until the back-to-back stinkshows vs. NO and STL. take away the 8 picks thrown in those two games and he put up a 27/9 season. lots of people want to focus on the negatives, well he's not going to ever have pinpoint accuracy, and he's now shown he can bounce back from a terrible season and put up some decent numbers. has everyone forgotten that they were in playoff contention in part because of freeman's play? yeah they finished 1-5, but only 2 of those 5 losses you can argue were on #5, the rest of them IMO are on the secondary and the o-line depth starting to show why its depth and not starting. they should have beat atlanta. manning had to come back to beat them in his own house, and the greatness that is nick foles goes off for 400+ ...but somehow its on freeman. if those 3 games were W's instead of L's they would have been in contention for the last playoff spot...all this after a 4-12 season


big_JLB

****
Starter

Posts : 771
Offline
« #29 : January 15, 2013, 12:12:17 PM »

It blows my mind how people down play this so much. It's a system that 2 time Superbowl winning MVP Eli Manning said it took him numerous years to understand. Freehaters talk about how he can't get the playbook. That's not what Eli, Sully or Freeman is talking about. They all have the playbook memorized. The issue was, and if you really listened you heard it, that a pass play, the routes run, the adjustments can look different every time the play is run and requires different adjustments. So it's not that Freeman needs more time to memorize who is running the slant route and who is running the out. More time is needed for the Freeman, WR's, TE to consistently  make the same adjustments in half a second and for Freeman to be able to let it go before the WR is out of the break knowing the WR is going to be exactly where he should be.

We've seen Freeman throw a lot of picks in the league. Antonio Bryant was someone known for saying screw it I'm doing my own thing, K2 was a sloppy route runner and would drift on plays that required very accurate routes.

We started off slow, we figured it out and took off to a 6-4 mark, then we slowed back down. Anyone think why this happened? Freeman needed a few weeks to learn the system, he did and the offense exploded. The NFL adjusted to our offense and we dove back into the basement because the depth of the knowledge required to be able to adjust to the adjustments on the fly isn't there yet. So say what you want, Sully staying is exactly what Freeman and the Bucs needed to figure out what he is going to be.

If he does the same thing this year, you'll hear few complaints from rational posters on this board, so basically i'll stop saying we need to be patient.

thank you! finally someone who gets it. once they figured the basics out they took off and LED THE NFL in offense. i think the bolded part is a very interesting point. once the rest of the league figured it out they didn't have enough experience to adjust. they could very well have been trying to install new plays during the 1-5 slide to combat the adjustments made by their opponents and simply didn't have enough time to really master them. we don't know for sure
« : January 15, 2013, 12:17:15 PM big_jlb »

  Page: 1 2 3 4 ... 10
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Mike Sullivan to stay with Buccaneers « previous next »
:  

Hide Tools Show Tools