Mike Sullivan to stay with Buccaneers

[BucBalla85]

nonsense guys... excuses!!!

[big_JLB]

Whats funny is that I dont even think of them as "excuses" (age, second year in system, bad coaching early in his career) but as realistic reasons for why he could turn his game around. Call me the "excuse man" all you want but they are legit reasons for why the guy could turn his game around.

+1

[lyronmewis]

this could quite possibly be the most important (non) move of the offseason. those who take a negative POV on freeman aren't giving enough credence to the fact that it was his 3rd offensive system in 4 years, and he still put up the numbers he did.

I'm sick of this tired excuse.  Freeman was the 4th QB at best during the time when Jagz was the OC.  That's a B/S excuse.

That's still a whole offseason of learning a different playbook. If you're a raw rookie going into the NFL and spend your first offseason learning a playbook, then right before the season starts, have to learn a completely new one, that would be very detrimental to your learning process. Freeman would be a completely different player if he had Mike Sullivan since May 2009.

[big_JLB]

this could quite possibly be the most important (non) move of the offseason. those who take a negative POV on freeman aren't giving enough credence to the fact that it was his 3rd offensive system in 4 years, and he still put up the numbers he did.

I'm sick of this tired excuse.  Freeman was the 4th QB at best during the time when Jagz was the OC.  That's a B/S excuse.

just because you believe that changing offensive systems is a "B/S excuse" doesn't change the fact that its a detriment to a young QB's development. and it doesn't change the fact that that has happened to freeman 3 times. you get better at things the more you practice them. its a fact. if you have to relearn a new offensive system every year rather than focusing on mastering the ins-and-outs of one particular system you're never going to achieve the level of comfort and results than someone who has had the luxury of continuity.

its a simple truth, not an excuse. i dont get how people cant wrap their heads around this.

[Biggs3535]

this could quite possibly be the most important (non) move of the offseason. those who take a negative POV on freeman aren't giving enough credence to the fact that it was his 3rd offensive system in 4 years, and he still put up the numbers he did.

I'm sick of this tired excuse.  Freeman was the 4th QB at best during the time when Jagz was the OC.  That's a B/S excuse.

just because you believe that changing offensive systems is a "B/S excuse" doesn't change the fact that its a detriment to a young QB's development. and it doesn't change the fact that that has happened to freeman 3 times. you get better at things the more you practice them. its a fact. if you have to relearn a new offensive system every year rather than focusing on mastering the ins-and-outs of one particular system you're never going to achieve the level of comfort and results than someone who has had the luxury of continuity.

its a simple truth, not an excuse. i dont get how people cant wrap their heads around this.

So how does this excuse, and yes it is an excuse, meld with the fact that Freeman played better in 2009 and 2010 than he did in 2011?  Why is that the further got away from this detrimental offense of the preseason of 2009, he got worse?  Wouldn't it stand to reason the Jagz-excuse was over after he played well in 2009 and 2010?

[QaZ]

Whats funny is that I dont even think of them as "excuses" (age, second year in system, bad coaching early in his career) but as realistic reasons for why he could turn his game around. Call me the "excuse man" all you want but they are legit reasons for why the guy could turn his game around.

Actually its scary, those guys give every excuse to everyone else and prolly would give to Freeman aswell, would this team just help him out a bit more.

Why did Eli miss the POs again? Why did Brees miss out aswell? Why did Newton not scratch .500 yet? Why does Stafford slump this year? Why does Peyton choke in the POs again? Why does Rodgers just have a few flashy stats but hardly any POs wins since 2010, despite playing on a loaded team? Imagine Rodgers without K2's PI.
Why do Kaepernick and Wilson have the #1&2 defense to rely on? Why does RG3 miss out multiple games and still make the POs?

[BucBalla85]

Its hard to win in this league. No matter who you got at QB. Better have a damn good team surrounding your QB or your not going anywhere.

[chace1986]

as for freeman missing receivers that are where they're supposed to be, he was never the most accurate passer so i'm not going to be up in arms over that. if you want to talk about how he stares down his primary target or doesn't move past the LOS then i'll agree, he's a donkey when it comes to those things. but i think billick had it right when he said his problem is not so much accuracy as it is decision making...which can only get better as both he and his receivers have some systematic continuity.

even during the 1-3 start the only really bad game he had was vs. dallas, then he didn't have another until the back-to-back stinkshows vs. NO and STL. take away the 8 picks thrown in those two games and he put up a 27/9 season. lots of people want to focus on the negatives, well he's not going to ever have pinpoint accuracy, and he's now shown he can bounce back from a terrible season and put up some decent numbers. has everyone forgotten that they were in playoff contention in part because of freeman's play? yeah they finished 1-5, but only 2 of those 5 losses you can argue were on #5, the rest of them IMO are on the secondary and the o-line depth starting to show why its depth and not starting. they should have beat atlanta. manning had to come back to beat them in his own house, and the greatness that is nick foles goes off for 400+ ...but somehow its on freeman. if those 3 games were W's instead of L's they would have been in contention for the last playoff spot...all this after a 4-12 season

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

[danimal09]

Whats funny is that I dont even think of them as "excuses" (age, second year in system, bad coaching early in his career) but as realistic reasons for why he could turn his game around. Call me the "excuse man" all you want but they are legit reasons for why the guy could turn his game around.

Actually its scary, those guys give every excuse to everyone else and prolly would give to Freeman aswell, would this team just help him out a bit more.

Why did Eli miss the POs again? Why did Brees miss out aswell? Why did Newton not scratch .500 yet? Why does Stafford slump this year? Why does Peyton choke in the POs again? Why does Rodgers just have a few flashy stats but hardly any POs wins since 2010, despite playing on a loaded team? Imagine Rodgers without K2's PI.
Why do Kaepernick and Wilson have the #1&2 defense to rely on? Why does RG3 miss out multiple games and still make the POs?

Interesting point. And I am sure the hardcore fan communities of those teams have the same type of critical fans of their QBs but make excuses to external QBs. It has always been interesting to me the difference of opinion on the same player/coach from two different fan team perspectives. It goes vise versa too with excuse or "apologists" , to me it is all perspective being reality.

[Theoldbuc]

as for freeman missing receivers that are where they're supposed to be, he was never the most accurate passer so i'm not going to be up in arms over that. if you want to talk about how he stares down his primary target or doesn't move past the LOS then i'll agree, he's a donkey when it comes to those things. but i think billick had it right when he said his problem is not so much accuracy as it is decision making...which can only get better as both he and his receivers have some systematic continuity.

even during the 1-3 start the only really bad game he had was vs. dallas, then he didn't have another until the back-to-back stinkshows vs. NO and STL. take away the 8 picks thrown in those two games and he put up a 27/9 season. lots of people want to focus on the negatives, well he's not going to ever have pinpoint accuracy, and he's now shown he can bounce back from a terrible season and put up some decent numbers. has everyone forgotten that they were in playoff contention in part because of freeman's play? yeah they finished 1-5, but only 2 of those 5 losses you can argue were on #5, the rest of them IMO are on the secondary and the o-line depth starting to show why its depth and not starting. they should have beat atlanta. manning had to come back to beat them in his own house, and the greatness that is nick foles goes off for 400+ ...but somehow its on freeman. if those 3 games were W's instead of L's they would have been in contention for the last playoff spot...all this after a 4-12 season

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

What if the picks were a result of the receiver running the wrong route? We do know that a guard whiffed on a block at Denver allowing a blindside shot that caused the pick six. Saw that on the lead up to the Denver-Baltimore game. And did you see the receiver slip and fall in the Rams game? That created a pick six on a ball that was actually well thrown. How about having the lead down the stretch against ATL and having a ball dropped on third down that would have kept the drive going and ran time off the clock? Remember Philly? How about giving up a huge run and a huge pass at the end of the Redskins game? Remember NY? Yes the eight picks happened, but as you say, stats (even int stats) don't tell the whole story.  Even with those, We could have easily been 10-6 or even 11-5.

I don't know of anyone who says Freeman is without fault in the results of this season. At the same time, to say he sucks or that he isn't a good QB is wrong.

[BucBalla85]

Freeman isnt without fault for this season going the way it went but its not all his fault. He made his share of boneheaded plays and he made a lot of them. Enough to warrant fans disgust with him. Enough for a few to want to move on from him now. But he also made plays. I dont care who hes got as weapons, he got those guys the ball like the QB should. Hes proven he can do that. If he does that more than he did last year and he makes some better decisions when he didnt then he will be ok. I just hope they figure that out and get the defense squared away. If they can do that, then I think the team has got some serious potential to go far in playoffs. Gotta get it done first.

[big_JLB]

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

no doubt those 8 INTs exist, but thats where we differ. it seems to me lots of people see things very black and white on the freeman situation when in reality there are varying shades of grey. too much context is lost looking at things in such stark terms. and if that "context" gets labeled as excuses, so be it. labelling them as excuses doesnt change the fact that all these "what if's" significantly impact the way #5 is viewed and to an extent, dealt with. i use the secondary and the lack of o-line depth because those are two significant factors that led to this team losing games (along with freeman's play in a few games). you can call them excuses, but the reality is they are two issues that are realistically going to be addressed this offseason, and if done correctly should help this team win games, as well as reducing the pressure on freeman to win it himself (and make bonehead decisions in the process).

bottom line is if you step back, you can see that while freeman did contribute to this team's failures this season, he is hardly the team's biggest problem (not yet anyway). and IMO the positives as i can see them significantly outweigh the negatives of freeman's game, some of which are nitpicky at best. again, that's not to say he doesn't have his faults but QB is the least of their worries at this point.

[BucBalla85]

Good post big_jib.

[Benchwarmer#1]

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

no doubt those 8 INTs exist, but thats where we differ. it seems to me lots of people see things very black and white on the freeman situation when in reality there are varying shades of grey. too much context is lost looking at things in such stark terms. and if that "context" gets labeled as excuses, so be it. labelling them as excuses doesnt change the fact that all these "what if's" significantly impact the way #5 is viewed and to an extent, dealt with. i use the secondary and the lack of o-line depth because those are two significant factors that led to this team losing games (along with freeman's play in a few games). you can call them excuses, but the reality is they are two issues that are realistically going to be addressed this offseason, and if done correctly should help this team win games, as well as reducing the pressure on freeman to win it himself (and make bonehead decisions in the process).

bottom line is if you step back, you can see that while freeman did contribute to this team's failures this season, he is hardly the team's biggest problem (not yet anyway). and IMO the positives as i can see them significantly outweigh the negatives of freeman's game, some of which are nitpicky at best. again, that's not to say he doesn't have his faults but QB is the least of their worries at this point.

Two things I don't understand.

1. If freeman was drafted by a team that already had a good defense (ie, the broncos), wouldn't it be safe to say that he would have had a better chance starting out of the gate?

The guy was forced to start after a failed season, had morris as a HC (which happened to start "me throw" instead of his first round pick), and has yet to even see the defense be close to even average his entire tenure. Now to me, all of this instability has led to, well... instability. An that's not even taking into account the new systems yearly.

2. The people attacking freeman apparently don't understand the team concept, or just don't get the idea that there were parts of the team that faired much, much worse than free. Is it wrong of me to want posters to mention the CB argument every time they open there free-hating mouth?

When will people go after the failures on this team?? Freeman is no failure, but those DB's sure are. Yeah, they get talked about, but most of the resentment goes towards freeman, and that isn't right.

Say it with me now everyone...... "the DB core is BAD! ...No QB with be able to win often with the defense that is this BAD on the PASS!"

(There. Now hopefully they remember.)

[BucBalla85]

Well how have fans always been? It always seems to go to the QB or HC. Not that those guys should be without fault or blame but not all of it. There are so many things at play that determine your teams success. Yes QB play is one of them but many more that fans dont talk about or really even get to see. Things happen in the game that we dont all see or wouldnt understand if we werent in the team or QB meetings.