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BucNY

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#90 : January 16, 2013, 08:10:03 AM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

That's how the typical Buc fan thinks. Fire Freeman he is so bad!!! Then when you ask who to replace him with, they have a tough time finding someone who would be better. I mean if you're going to fire your 1st round QB, you better replace him with a guy who is significantly better.

Other than signing Tebow, or rolling the dice big time on a Geno Smith, there are no options for QB. QB is the biggest need for every team in the NFL. If people have even a serviceable QB, they do not let him go because even though Freeman might be in the middle of the pack, he is better than any replacement out there right now.

That's the truth, and don't fool yourself, the 2011 QB draft was a once in 10 years draft.

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#91 : January 16, 2013, 08:22:19 AM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

That's how the typical Buc fan thinks. Fire Freeman he is so bad!!! Then when you ask who to replace him with, they have a tough time finding someone who would be better. I mean if you're going to fire your 1st round QB, you better replace him with a guy who is significantly better.

Other than signing Tebow, or rolling the dice big time on a Geno Smith, there are no options for QB. QB is the biggest need for every team in the NFL. If people have even a serviceable QB, they do not let him go because even though Freeman might be in the middle of the pack, he is better than any replacement out there right now.

That's the truth, and don't fool yourself, the 2011 QB draft was a once in 10 years draft.

Way to over-exaggerate. So most people who criticize Freeman want him firedd now? Hardly. You are fighting a strawman, again.

As far as people coming up with a viable replacement for Freeman, I have seen plenty of ideas and scenarios from people. Should they add that at the end of Freeman post? Should they add that in their sig line?

Pretty much everyone realizes that Freeman will start on opening day, and will be given a shot to reignite the fire from '10. If needed, the best shot at replacing him is probably in the '14 draft.
: January 16, 2013, 08:24:26 AM chace1986


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

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#92 : January 16, 2013, 08:41:30 AM

It blows my mind how people down play this so much. It's a system that 2 time Superbowl winning MVP Eli Manning said it took him numerous years to understand. Freehaters talk about how he can't get the playbook. That's not what Eli, Sully or Freeman is talking about. They all have the playbook memorized. The issue was, and if you really listened you heard it, that a pass play, the routes run, the adjustments can look different every time the play is run and requires different adjustments. So it's not that Freeman needs more time to memorize who is running the slant route and who is running the out. More time is needed for the Freeman, WR's, TE to consistently  make the same adjustments in half a second and for Freeman to be able to let it go before the WR is out of the break knowing the WR is going to be exactly where he should be.

We've seen Freeman throw a lot of picks in the league. Antonio Bryant was someone known for saying screw it I'm doing my own thing, K2 was a sloppy route runner and would drift on plays that required very accurate routes.

We started off slow, we figured it out and took off to a 6-4 mark, then we slowed back down. Anyone think why this happened? Freeman needed a few weeks to learn the system, he did and the offense exploded. The NFL adjusted to our offense and we dove back into the basement because the depth of the knowledge required to be able to adjust to the adjustments on the fly isn't there yet. So say what you want, Sully staying is exactly what Freeman and the Bucs needed to figure out what he is going to be.

If he does the same thing this year, you'll hear few complaints from rational posters on this board, so basically i'll stop saying we need to be patient.

thank you! finally someone who gets it. once they figured the basics out they took off and LED THE NFL in offense. i think the bolded part is a very interesting point. once the rest of the league figured it out they didn't have enough experience to adjust. they could very well have been trying to install new plays during the 1-5 slide to combat the adjustments made by their opponents and simply didn't have enough time to really master them. we don't know for sure

Yet the league didn't adjust to the offenses led by RG3 and Russell Wilson among others...interesting.

both of whom have been playing for one season, lets see if they duplicate that level of success next year. also, there has been tape on the giants offense for years, which is largely what sullivan runs. the rest of the league will catch up. its not if, but when. it should also be noted that RGIII, russell wilson, and kaepernick are all running modified versions of the pistol offense (the exact same one that kaepernick ran in college) that chris ault runs at nevada. its like any offensive system that gets introduced, it catches people off guard and works (e.g. the wildcat) but then the league adjusts. the pistol just happens to be better


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#93 : January 16, 2013, 09:08:28 AM


What's being said: "Freeman's not getting it done. He's at or near his ceiling, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a  championship. Maybe its time we start considering looking at other options for our future, or at least bring in some competition."

What the Freepologist hears: "Get your pitchforks, we'll run him out of town tonight!"

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#94 : January 16, 2013, 09:23:11 AM

For all the ones berating the supposed "Freepologists", I've yet to hear of a realistic and viable replacement.

That's how the typical Buc fan thinks.

fixed it for you

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#95 : January 16, 2013, 09:25:59 AM


What's being said: "Freeman's not getting it done. He's at or near his ceiling, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a  championship. Maybe its time we start considering looking at other options for our future, or at least bring in some competition."

What the Freepologist hears: "Get your pitchforks, we'll run him out of town tonight!"

Lord knows i rarely agree with Lumi but on the rare occasion that he's right, I feel compelled to acknowledge it.

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 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?

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#96 : January 16, 2013, 09:35:09 AM


What's being said: "Freeman's not getting it done. He's at or near his ceiling, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a  championship. Maybe its time we start considering looking at other options for our future, or at least bring in some competition."

What the Freepologist hears: "Get your pitchforks, we'll run him out of town tonight!"

i just don't know how anyone can make that decision based on the body of work that he's put forth. IMO there have been numerous detriments to his success throughout his tenure here and even still he's shown enough positives for me to not want to say "it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a championship." if 4000+ yards and nearly 30 TD's can be his "ceiling" i'll take it. especially with a competent defense (which is a luxury that hasn't been afforded to him)

this is why i say #5 is the least of their worries right now. it almost feels like this whole conversation is happening at least a year too early. he had a terrible season in 2011 and they brought in some talent and he showed he could bounce back. would any one say that the roster as it stood going into this season was complete? no, and they'll obviously look to improve it this offseason. IMO he's shown enough in 4 years to suggest continued improvement in his 5th. and if he puts up another season like this one next year i'll probably say tag him, but thats it. after that smell ya later. hopefully he balls out and that wont have to be an option.

i do agree however, that some sort of competition should be brought in. not so much to supplant #5 (if it happens so be it) but to push him, and if that's not going to happen, at least bring in someone like david carr who is a vet and more importantly has experience in the system that is being run. i also think they should draft someone with a mid-late round pick. personally i think they should try and bring in a new QB every year to see if they can find something.


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#97 : January 16, 2013, 09:39:48 AM


What's being said: "Freeman's not getting it done. He's at or near his ceiling, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a  championship. Maybe its time we start considering looking at other options for our future, or at least bring in some competition."

What the Freepologist hears: "Get your pitchforks, we'll run him out of town tonight!"

i just don't know how anyone can make that decision based on the body of work that he's put forth. IMO there have been numerous detriments to his success throughout his tenure here and even still he's shown enough positives for me to not want to say "it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a championship." if 4000+ yards and nearly 30 TD's can be his "ceiling" i'll take it. especially with a competent defense (which is a luxury that hasn't been afforded to him)

this is why i say #5 is the least of their worries right now. it almost feels like this whole conversation is happening at least a year too early. he had a terrible season in 2011 and they brought in some talent and he showed he could bounce back. would any one say that the roster as it stood going into this season was complete? no, and they'll obviously look to improve it this offseason. IMO he's shown enough in 4 years to suggest continued improvement in his 5th. and if he puts up another season like this one next year i'll probably say tag him, but thats it. after that smell ya later. hopefully he balls out and that wont have to be an option.

i do agree however, that some sort of competition should be brought in. not so much to supplant #5 (if it happens so be it) but to push him, and if that's not going to happen, at least bring in someone like david carr who is a vet and more importantly has experience in the system that is being run. i also think they should draft someone with a mid-late round pick. personally i think they should try and bring in a new QB every year to see if they can find something.
That might not be a bad idea, especially if the backup is not considered to be anything special.

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#98 : January 16, 2013, 10:00:07 AM

If Sully stays, can one of you suggest he gets more sphoisticated in  his play calling....need more disguises.  You simply cannot win if everytime Dougie comes on the field you run.  The Blount comes in you run him.  Then Blout goes out etc etc.  You don't have to have trick plays to disguise the goal of each play.  A few more QB fakes   to take the predictability out of Josh's play, put in a NT on goalline plays ala Sapp.  Stuff like that..use Dallas Clark more....he has great hands....spread the ball around.....SPREAD THE RUN AROUND.    I'll stop here before I start screaming.


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#99 : January 16, 2013, 10:13:10 AM


What's being said: "Freeman's not getting it done. He's at or near his ceiling, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to win a  championship. Maybe its time we start considering looking at other options for our future, or at least bring in some competition."


Does anyone really think this is Freeman's ceiling?  I don't, that's for sure. I think his level of play the past two seasons is closer to his floor than his ceiling. I mean Freeman has so much ability. Dude just needs to get his head straight.

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#100 : January 16, 2013, 10:19:02 AM

The thing is, those two games and 8 ints exist, whether people want to acknowledge them or not.  I just don't get the, "well, if you don't look at this, this, and this..then Freeman was pretty good". I really hope the coaching staff doesn't do this when evaluating Freeman. Sure, he can bounce back and have decent numbers...and that's great for those who love to sit around and masturbate to a stat sheet webpage on ESPN.com...but stats rarely tell the whole story. We weren't in playoff contention for the last month of the year...hard to argue that we were in contention when it actually mattered. The Bucs went 1-5 down the stretch because the whole team faltered....not just the defense, and not just Freeman. Freeman was not blameless in any of those last 5 losses. Should have beaten Atlanta, and beating Atlanta are two completely different things. The team that deserved to win that game, won. Period. I wouldn't exactly call that loss against Denver a product of a great manning comeback...also Freemans pick 6 pretty much put things out of reach in that one. You certainly like to play a lot of "ifs".

no doubt those 8 INTs exist, but thats where we differ. it seems to me lots of people see things very black and white on the freeman situation when in reality there are varying shades of grey. too much context is lost looking at things in such stark terms. and if that "context" gets labeled as excuses, so be it. labelling them as excuses doesnt change the fact that all these "what if's" significantly impact the way #5 is viewed and to an extent, dealt with. i use the secondary and the lack of o-line depth because those are two significant factors that led to this team losing games (along with freeman's play in a few games). you can call them excuses, but the reality is they are two issues that are realistically going to be addressed this offseason, and if done correctly should help this team win games, as well as reducing the pressure on freeman to win it himself (and make bonehead decisions in the process).

bottom line is if you step back, you can see that while freeman did contribute to this team's failures this season, he is hardly the team's biggest problem (not yet anyway). and IMO the positives as i can see them significantly outweigh the negatives of freeman's game, some of which are nitpicky at best. again, that's not to say he doesn't have his faults but QB is the least of their worries at this point.

Two things I don't understand.

1. If freeman was drafted by a team that already had a good defense (ie, the broncos), wouldn't it be safe to say that he would have had a better chance starting out of the gate?

The guy was forced to start after a failed season, had morris as a HC (which happened to start "me throw" instead of his first round pick), and has yet to even see the defense be close to even average his entire tenure. Now to me, all of this instability has led to, well... instability. An that's not even taking into account the new systems yearly.

2. The people attacking freeman apparently don't understand the team concept, or just don't get the idea that there were parts of the team that faired much, much worse than free. Is it wrong of me to want posters to mention the CB argument every time they open there free-hating mouth?

When will people go after the failures on this team?? Freeman is no failure, but those DB's sure are. Yeah, they get talked about, but most of the resentment goes towards freeman, and that isn't right.

Say it with me now everyone...... "the DB core is BAD! ...No QB with be able to win often with the defense that is this BAD on the PASS!"

(There. Now hopefully they remember.) ;)

The Skins defense gave up 15 less pass yds/game than the Bucs defense and they made the playoffs as a division winner and 4 seed.

The Pats defense gave up 26 less pass yds/game than the Buce defense and they made the playoffs as a division winner and 2 seed.

And for the kicker, the Packers defense gave up MORE passing yards (38 more on the year) last season than the Bucs did this season and they made the playoffs AS A DIVISION WINNER AND THE #1 SEED.

It's possible...as I've said over and over and over again...in today's NFL, it's easier to overcome bad defensive play than it is to overcome bad QB play.

Does it mean anything to you that we gave up more points per game than all of the above? You do understand that scoring defense is more important than passing defense, right? And if teams scored fewer points we would have won more games, true?

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#101 : January 16, 2013, 10:53:28 AM


I have yet to see a poster here defending the play of our DBs. Actually, i feel pretty safe in saying as a whole, our secondary sucked. Difference is, we all know that and acknowledge that a complete overhaul is imminent. My question to you is if we aren't going to settle for mediocre at that position, why should be settle for mediocre at the most important position on the team?

If our defense just would be 'average'. Freeman is part of a top10 offense, personally he is 9th in the lead regarding passing yards(7th at TDs thrown).
All this while our pass defense finished 32nd in the league, one vanilla Freeman jump ball away from breaking the all time record.

Yes, looking at the two games against the Saints this is also Freemans fault, since Brees threw for more yards in the tight game at RJS. He just got over 300 in the shutout @NO.

Yes, if our defense would play anyway near Freemans level and his offense i would understand how Freeman is the weakest link, getting a top5 CB is prolly not that much easier to find than a top5 QB. Considering a top5 QB has more influence on a team than a CB, i would also put all my ressources on trying to upgrade the QB position instead of wasting my picks on defense for marginal improvements. Just this is not the case here, prolly a 7th rounder would be a day1 starter on this pass defense.

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#102 : January 16, 2013, 11:12:57 AM


i can't believe these clowns keep bringing up the "franchise records" nonsense. I was thinking about this last week...is their a franchise in football w/absolutely ZERO franchise, elite, etc QBs in their history? Of the top of my head, the only 3 I could think of one are Carolina, Detroit and the Bucs. People need to stop throwing the "franchise record" garbage around as if it actually means something w/this franchise.

Sure, being better than Vinny does not make Freeman an elite QB. But this franchise desperatly looked for an elite QB and Freeman is the closest the got in 40 years.
It shows how this 'we will draft a QB in 2013 or 2014 to replace Freeman'  might not work out. Its not like we would even have the name of his replacement yet. You think a unknown would be better than Freeman? But Freeman is better than any QB we drafted so far.

Yes we COULD get a better QB than Freeman in 2013 or 2014, just Freeman does not keep us from drafting him. Letting him play, maybe extending him, does not cost one single draft pick. Trading him now actually nets us more draft picks. So pretty much everyone you try to birng in here as his replacement, my scenario can do aswell, maybe even more easily by trading Freeman NOW, when still has value for us.
Is Geno Smith better than Freeman? Will Johnny Fottball be in 2014? You are sure we can get him in 2014, does he stay one more year, is he injured, will he go #1 overall? Atleast this would be a plan, but this pipe dream of a unknown QB being better than Freeman is BS. Freeman being the franshise leader just exposes your blind faith in getting a better QB anytime soon by nothing but playing lottery.

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#103 : January 16, 2013, 11:19:45 AM

Freeman sucking, and having a viable replacement right now are two entirely different subjects. Why do some of you keep trying to make them the same thing? Just because there is no one to replace him with at the moment, doesn't mean he sucks less. Two different discussions.

No they are not two different discussions, Freeman is as good as the market makes him.
You can complain about all day, but Peyton choked again this year. If Denver has a better QB available than him they would make that move, as Indy did last year.

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#104 : January 16, 2013, 11:25:39 AM


Way to over-exaggerate. So most people who criticize Freeman want him firedd now? Hardly. You are fighting a strawman, again.

As far as people coming up with a viable replacement for Freeman, I have seen plenty of ideas and scenarios from people. Should they add that at the end of Freeman post? Should they add that in their sig line?

Pretty much everyone realizes that Freeman will start on opening day, and will be given a shot to reignite the fire from '10. If needed, the best shot at replacing him is probably in the '14 draft.

Sorry, but letting Freeman walk for nothing after 2013, since the franchise tag or joining a bidding war are no valuable options, is pretty much firing.
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