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chace1986

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#15 : January 17, 2013, 11:53:49 AM

Oh it was definitely a great throw, regardless of who It was against...but he was part of the reason that the team didn't win again after that until week 17. Not much "it" was shown by him during the most important stretch of the season.


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#16 : January 17, 2013, 11:57:21 AM

Sure, in that Panthers game he had 'it'.  But where did 'it' go in the last 6 games of the season?

chace1986

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#17 : January 17, 2013, 11:59:45 AM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.


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#18 : January 17, 2013, 12:09:37 PM

I think the shock from some of the good stops the defense made down the stretch led him into turnovers.  He might have been tired, because the defense didn't stay on the field long enough to give him a sufficient breather. 

I know they weren't smothering, but there were some games down the stretch (obviously not NO) where the defense would get a good stop, only to watch the O go three and out.

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#19 : January 17, 2013, 12:16:42 PM

Well the positive thing is that he showed that hes capable of making those comebacks. Thats one thing I wont ignore. He needs to be consistent and improve that accuracy a bit. If he does that and the defense improves then we got ourselves a pretty tough team to beat.

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#20 : January 17, 2013, 12:20:11 PM

No clue how a win in week 17 over the Falcons should value more then going on the road on TNF and beat a PO team fueled by a 2000y RB.
If we win first 11 games and then lose 5 straight, we still make the PO, as any 11-5 team, no matter how they got there.

It was a great throw against an above average pass defense, the fact the Panthers aer plagued by a suspect QB did not make the window wider.
Freeman had another one against NO, refs just did not call it game winning TD. Refs overturned what would have gave us 1st down inside the NYG's redzone. Against WAS he came back after a horrible 1st half, just our d# let RG3 run down the field to make it meaningless. Against Phillie our defense gave up 15 points in last 4 minutes, against a rookie QB in his 2nd (?) start.
Wilson has the #1 defense behind him and is allowed to win games by throwing INT.

Sure bad calls/plays happen, but they have major impact on season, even whole careers, so i think it is stupid to just judge the indiviual play by its result.
Freeman had perfect pass against NYG, MW let it slip through his hands, but was able to catch it bouncing of a CB helmet. It would not have been a TD, would the CB have slipped at line of scrimmage.
We were a onside kick recovery away from getting the ball back with over 2min left against the allmighty Denver Broncos, i would not have called it a miracle to tie the game then.
If phillie does not muff that punt, our last drive is for the win, instead of running out the clock. Than our horrible defense would not have mattered, because i like our chances then, coming from behind with Freeman at helmet.

This team is just able to win games, if our offense puts up 40+ points, no lead is safe with this defense. Even against OAK ann MINN it got tight at the end.

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#21 : January 17, 2013, 12:21:28 PM

As far as big games go, he really has only had 2 chances, in 2010 against the Lions and this year against the Eagles... Bucs lost both.

Your rationale is infuriating. In those 2 games he had 0 turnovers, lead taking drives in the 4th qtr, only to watch the defense blow the game in the final seconds to Drew Stanton and Nick Foles.

chace1986

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#22 : January 17, 2013, 12:36:24 PM

As far as big games go, he really has only had 2 chances, in 2010 against the Lions and this year against the Eagles... Bucs lost both.

Your rationale is infuriating. In those 2 games he had 0 turnovers, lead taking drives in the 4th qtr, only to watch the defense blow the game in the final seconds to Drew Stanton and Nick Foles.

You also could be infuriated because Freeman actually got outplayed in both of those games by Nick Foles and Drew Stanton.


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TBayXXXVII

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#23 : January 17, 2013, 12:38:47 PM

As far as big games go, he really has only had 2 chances, in 2010 against the Lions and this year against the Eagles... Bucs lost both.

Your rationale is infuriating. In those 2 games he had 0 turnovers, lead taking drives in the 4th qtr, only to watch the defense blow the game in the final seconds to Drew Stanton and Nick Foles.

You also could be infuriated because Freeman actually got outplayed in both of those games by Nick Foles and Drew Stanton.

^^^ That, PLUS... a QB with the "IT" factor generally puts a bad team away in a big game to the point where those bad teams can't win on a last second score.

Blaze688

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#24 : January 17, 2013, 12:44:11 PM

The "it factor" is a load of bull****.  A lot of it's luck.  What happens if Dwight Clark mistimes his jump and drops The Catch?  What if Adam Vinatieri misses the Super Bowl-winning kick in 2001?  What if Antonio Freeman doesn't drop a wide open bullet from Brett Favre, and helps tie up Super Bowl XXXII in the closing seconds?  In those examples, three of the clutchest quarterbacks ever -- Montana, Brady, and Elway -- suffer a reputation hit because of the error of another player.

Kurt Warner's a great example.  He'd be unanimously considered one of the greatest and most clutch players ever if he'd won more than one Super Bowl.  But take a look at this:

STL - TD - Isaac Bruce, 73 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Jeff Wilkins kick is good).

STL   - TD - Ricky Proehl, 26 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Jeff Wilkins kick is good).

ARI - TD - Larry Fitzgerald, 64 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Neil Rackers kick is good).


Those are three passes from three different Super Bowls.  All three of them gave Kurt Warner's team a fourth-quarter lead with only minutes to play.  In two of those three instances (and almost a third!), his defense blew the game.  A well-timed defensive stop would've given Kurt Warner three Super Bowl victories, three Super Bowl fourth-quarter comebacks, and three Super Bowl game-winning drives.  You don't get more "it factor" than that.  But because his teams failed to stop the opposition -- while Warner was on the sidelines -- he'll never have the reputation of a Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, or Elway.

I think I've belabored the point, but measuring a player by his "it factor" is a ridiculous and shallow way to evaluate an athlete.


chace1986

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#25 : January 17, 2013, 12:46:10 PM

As far as big games go, he really has only had 2 chances, in 2010 against the Lions and this year against the Eagles... Bucs lost both.

Your rationale is infuriating. In those 2 games he had 0 turnovers, lead taking drives in the 4th qtr, only to watch the defense blow the game in the final seconds to Drew Stanton and Nick Foles.

You also could be infuriated because Freeman actually got outplayed in both of those games by Nick Foles and Drew Stanton.

^^^ That, PLUS... a QB with the "IT" factor generally puts a bad team away in a big game to the point where those bad teams can't win on a last second score.

Yup. Not having to kick a 29 and 30 yard FG on 2 drives in the 4th qtr, instead of putting it in the end zone against the Lions....oh wait...that was the refs fault... ::) please.
Also, not having a stagnant offense for nearly 3 whole qtrs. and only climb back into the game because of a gift from Philly's special teams.
Yup, they were bad teams. Lions were 3-10 entering that game and Philly was 3-9. Loses weren't solely on Josh, but he definitely didn't step up and show the "it" when needed  at the time of December(we need this f*cking game)football.


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#26 : January 17, 2013, 12:58:53 PM

Ah, when the 'it' factor turns into the sh'it' factor.

For what it's worth, I would have to say Kurt Warned definitely had the it factor.

Blaze688

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#27 : January 17, 2013, 01:01:54 PM

For what it's worth, I would have to say Kurt Warned definitely had the it factor.

Looking at his body of work, there's no question Warner was clutch.  But he'll never have that universal designation as a clutch quarterback, when -- in reality -- he might've been the best big-game clutch quarterback ever.  All because of some bad defense.


TBayXXXVII

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#28 : January 17, 2013, 01:03:30 PM

The "it factor" is a load of bull****.  A lot of it's luck.  What happens if Dwight Clark mistimes his jump and drops The Catch?  What if Adam Vinatieri misses the Super Bowl-winning kick in 2001?  What if Antonio Freeman doesn't drop a wide open bullet from Brett Favre, and helps tie up Super Bowl XXXII in the closing seconds?  In those examples, three of the clutchest quarterbacks ever -- Montana, Brady, and Elway -- suffer a reputation hit because of the error of another player.

Kurt Warner's a great example.  He'd be unanimously considered one of the greatest and most clutch players ever if he'd won more than one Super Bowl.  But take a look at this:

STL - TD - Isaac Bruce, 73 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Jeff Wilkins kick is good).

STL   - TD - Ricky Proehl, 26 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Jeff Wilkins kick is good).

ARI - TD - Larry Fitzgerald, 64 yd pass from Kurt Warner (Neil Rackers kick is good).


Those are three passes from three different Super Bowls.  All three of them gave Kurt Warner's team a fourth-quarter lead with only minutes to play.  In two of those three instances (and almost a third!), his defense blew the game.  A well-timed defensive stop would've given Kurt Warner three Super Bowl victories, three Super Bowl fourth-quarter comebacks, and three Super Bowl game-winning drives.  You don't get more "it factor" than that.  But because his teams failed to stop the opposition -- while Warner was on the sidelines -- he'll never have the reputation of a Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, or Elway.

I think I've belabored the point, but measuring a player by his "it factor" is a ridiculous and shallow way to evaluate an athlete.

I don't agree with anything you said.

You start of with references to Favre, Elway, Brady, and Montana.  You want to take away one single play and you think that changes everything?  Utter nonsense.  The reason people have such high opinions of these guys is because that you single play you want to take away... happened over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those instances weren't one-time scenario's, but among a list.

No one thinks any less of Kurt Warner.  Almost everyone on this planet thinks Warner is one of the top 3-7 QB's all-time.  Everyone knows he shows up in big games, because as you pointed out in you little blip - as with the other guys you've mentioned above - the continual occurance of coming up big in big games is what stands out to people.  There's also a lot of people who think Kurt Warner was a better QB than Bradshaw.  There are some who think he was better than Montana and Elway too.

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#29 : January 17, 2013, 01:20:24 PM

Unitas couldn't latch on with the Steelers, who hadn't won anything in their first three decades in a league a third the size it is today. They let him go to the Colts where he was an immediate starter when the actual starter went down with a season ending injury.

Terry Bradshaw struggled to beat out his competition. His competition shot himself in the foot with off field issues. Even then the media and the fans (sound familiar?) ridiculed him and made jokes about his intelligence. He's made a fortune, much more than he earned as a player, in broadcasting, movies, and album sales. Stupid -smart and four SB rings later, he's still having fun and making money. (I could see Freeman winning four SB rings, but none of the rest of it.)

Joe Montana landed with a great organization and Bill Walsh who also made Steve Young a HOFer.

John Elway struggled in the big games. IIRC he lost three before he won two. He had a lot of help at RB in the two he won. Great situation more than "it", IMO.

Brett Favre impressed Jerry Glanville so much he traded him to Green Bay. Favre holds the record for interceptions in a playoff game with six. Great entertainer, just couldn't hold a job. ;)  Played for four different teams. Favre holds a lot of records, but we all know records aren't important. It's all about wins.

Peyton Manning clearly took the Colts on his back and carried them to the playoffs year after year. Like Elway, Peyton is a bit of a choker. One Lombardi in all those years. He did it again this year.  HOFer who mostly fell short. Maybe next year.

Tom Brady had a bad situation at Michigan holding the clipboard.  Was he targeted in the 6th round, or was it luck of the draw? We'll never know, but an established coaching staff, with a veteran team, is a great way to start. Great situation.

Dan Marino also had a great situation, and he also set records with it. He had a long illustrious career, but never won a SB. In fact, he lost the only one he ever made it to.

Whether or not Russel has "it" will be debated, but he definitely has a great situation and a great defense to back him up.

Before ihop starts in...........I didn't start this thread and the only way to say anything about this topic has to include QB comparisons.

The Bucs won a SB with Brad Johnson. Eli Manning is living proof that you don't have to have Tom Brady to win a SB, in fact two SBs. Other than the fact that BJ actually won one, his name would never be included as one of the all time greats. His name would be debatable on a list of best Buccaneer QBs. Without that Defense the Bucs don't even make the playoffs, forget about winning the SB. Give Josh Freeman that defense and the Bucs are playing at home this Sunday in the NFCC game.

Freeman may not have "it", and he may never have "it" but he is still far and away our best option. He's the best option we've ever had. He's made the most of a bad situation and that situation is getting better. The Bucs scored more points in Schiano's first year than any other team in franchise history. It's not a stretch to expect even more in his second year. Doug Martin will have a great year behind Nicks and Joseph. So will Freeman. Schiano helped the offense with VJax. There is no doubt he will now focus on helping the defense.

Russell Wilson may be the next Doug Flutie. I don't know and don't really care.  I just want a defense that can stop him. The Bucs can win SBs with Josh Freeman and a decent defense. Freeman doesn't have the experience Brad Johnson had, and he's already more dangerous. I like our odds with him.

In this year's crop Luck did the most with the least, RGIII raised durability issues, and Wilson came out of nowhere. Revisit this topic in 3 or 4 years.
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