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Benchwarmer#1

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#30 : January 23, 2013, 11:22:59 AM

I was just hoping he would put up JJ Watt-like numbers.

I know it's not the same position, but at least close to those numbers would be Probowl worthy (and worthy of the pick) for me. I know everyone is going to hate on me for this, but it's worrisome that we've had two DE's make more sacks (when at one time they were considered sub-par/average) in their "good" seasons, than in McCoy's probowl season.

I know we don't solely judge by sacks alone, but 5 sacks for a DT is average. You can argue that with Hurries and pressures, but to me, you might as well say they were "might have-been's." There is no denying his run-stopping abilities, but to place him in probowl for it is suspect imo. NOT saying the guy isn't good, just that I cannot understand how he got in.

JJ Watt-like numbers? The dude had 20.5 sacks this year, lol....That is absurd to expect a DT to put up numbers like that. Hell, Sapp only managed double digit sacks four times in his whole career and one of those times was in Oakland.

5 sacks is not average for a DT at all, only 10 DTs in the league even managed 5 sacks this year (including McCoy). The position is not one where sacks are good judgement. Blind side passrushers should get sacks because they are attacking the QB where he can't see them. DTs are right in their face, if they get a great pass rush off the snap, they know to check down or throw it away because they are looking right at the rusher. DT sacks are usually the result of good coverage (something the Bucs know very little of these days) or the DE making the QB step up into the pocket (something the Bucs are also not very good at). McCoy was one of the best all around DTs in penetration this year, in passing and running situations alike. He is a keeper, but some won't accept him because he was the 3rd overall pick and not putting up monster stats.

Ty for responding. I thought the response I got was what I would get.

It just seems like there should be a few other guys who would get in first.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#31 : January 23, 2013, 11:49:29 AM

I was just hoping he would put up JJ Watt-like numbers.

I know it's not the same position, but at least close to those numbers would be Probowl worthy (and worthy of the pick) for me. I know everyone is going to hate on me for this, but it's worrisome that we've had two DE's make more sacks (when at one time they were considered sub-par/average) in their "good" seasons, than in McCoy's probowl season.

I know we don't solely judge by sacks alone, but 5 sacks for a DT is average. You can argue that with Hurries and pressures, but to me, you might as well say they were "might have-been's." There is no denying his run-stopping abilities, but to place him in probowl for it is suspect imo. NOT saying the guy isn't good, just that I cannot understand how he got in.

You can't possible compare GMac with Watt. Houston plays an entirely different type of Defense. Watt is not a traditional type of DT. Sometimes he's a DT, other times he's a DE or OLB. The Bucs defense isn't built that way.

RogerGoodellSucks

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#32 : January 23, 2013, 12:24:17 PM

Why would I be infuriated? McCoy is a baller. It's also nice to see him get voted for the Pro Bowl instead of Suh.

Some hate on him because he didn't record 27 sacks last season.

10 would be a nice start

You do realize he plays DT, right? And you do realize only 1 DT got over 10 sacks this year and that was Geno Atkins, who played out of his mind this year, right? The next highest sack total for a DT was 8.

And you make it seem like 10 shouldn't be that hard for McCoy to get. Hilarious.

Props to McCoy. He's one of the main reasons we had the #1 rush defense in the NFL this year and is the best player on our defense. Hopefully he can stay healthy and continue playing at a Pro Bowl level.


acacius

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#33 : January 23, 2013, 01:08:18 PM

I was just hoping he would put up JJ Watt-like numbers.

I know it's not the same position, but at least close to those numbers would be Probowl worthy (and worthy of the pick) for me. I know everyone is going to hate on me for this, but it's worrisome that we've had two DE's make more sacks (when at one time they were considered sub-par/average) in their "good" seasons, than in McCoy's probowl season.

I know we don't solely judge by sacks alone, but 5 sacks for a DT is average. You can argue that with Hurries and pressures, but to me, you might as well say they were "might have-been's." There is no denying his run-stopping abilities, but to place him in probowl for it is suspect imo. NOT saying the guy isn't good, just that I cannot understand how he got in.

You can't possible compare GMac with Watt. Houston plays an entirely different type of Defense. Watt is not a traditional type of DT. Sometimes he's a DT, other times he's a DE or OLB. The Bucs defense isn't built that way.
Plus there's the bit where Watt's season was one of the greatest for a defensive lineman in the history of the NFL.  I mean, it was pretty much right there with Reggie White's season in '87.  Sure, it would be lovely if we had someone doing that, but it's simply not a reasonable metric for success.

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#34 : January 23, 2013, 01:11:44 PM

I guess people just expect guys taken top three to be amazing.


acacius

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#35 : January 23, 2013, 01:18:32 PM

I would agree that you certainly *hope* that a guy taken in the top 3 will be a HoFer, but I maintain that if the guy "only" develops into a reasonably consistant pro-bowler, it's still a very successful pick.  Of course, McCoy still has a whole lot to prove.  This was just one solid season.  But it was a good start.

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#36 : January 23, 2013, 01:23:38 PM

Dude was one of the best run-stopping defensive tackles in the league this season.  "Run stopping" isn't the designation you want for a top-3 pick, but if he's gonna excel at something, I'm happy he's among the best at it.
He was also one of the best defensive tackles at getting QB Pressures.

So if hes gonna excel at the two things his job requires, I'm happy with his top 3 pick


acacius

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#37 : January 23, 2013, 01:30:46 PM

For what it's worth, I thought I would double-check on how common double digit sacks are for DTs.  Top sack total for the a DT each year for the last decade:
2012: 12.5 - Geno Atkins (No others above 8.0)
2011: 7.5   - Atkins, Tommy Kelly and Justin Smith tied (I always found Smith's being listed as a DT to be a bit odd, but what're you going to do?)
2010: 10.0 - Suh
2009:  7.0  - Darnell Dockett
2008:  8.5  - Haynesworth
2007:  9.0 -  Dockett
2006:10.0 - Warren Sapp
2005:10.5 - Rod Coleman (No others above 8.5)
2004: 11.5 - Coleman and Kevin Williams tied (No others above 8.0, and that's Justin Smith)
2003: 10.5 - Kevin Smith (No others above 8.0)

That was pretty much what I remembered and it's why I think that it's reasonable to hope that McCoy will reach double digit sacks a time or three in his career, but that it is not reasonable to expect him to do it every year.

Benchwarmer#1

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#38 : January 23, 2013, 01:33:38 PM

I guess people just expect guys taken top three to be amazing.

That's kinda where I was going with it. Surely he will be a great help for the bucs going forward, it's just that his numbers don't look stellar to me.

I have nearly the same problem with miller. I hear all the raves about the guy, but I'm still not seeing the production that I'd like to see.

 He, nor mccoy, need to be jj watt, but there needs to be some meat on them bones.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#39 : January 23, 2013, 04:33:52 PM

For what it's worth, I thought I would double-check on how common double digit sacks are for DTs.  Top sack total for the a DT each year for the last decade:
2012: 12.5 - Geno Atkins (No others above 8.0)
2011: 7.5   - Atkins, Tommy Kelly and Justin Smith tied (I always found Smith's being listed as a DT to be a bit odd, but what're you going to do?)
2010: 10.0 - Suh
2009:  7.0  - Darnell Dockett
2008:  8.5  - Haynesworth
2007:  9.0 -  Dockett
2006:10.0 - Warren Sapp
2005:10.5 - Rod Coleman (No others above 8.5)
2004: 11.5 - Coleman and Kevin Williams tied (No others above 8.0, and that's Justin Smith)
2003: 10.5 - Kevin Smith (No others above 8.0)

That was pretty much what I remembered and it's why I think that it's reasonable to hope that McCoy will reach double digit sacks a time or three in his career, but that it is not reasonable to expect him to do it every year.


Expecting 10 sacks a year? No. Not reasonable.

I think it is reasonable to expect him to stay in that 5 to 10 sacks a year range when he was drafted 3rd overall specifically for his pass rush ability. Run stopping is great, and lord knows we need it, but you don't take a run stopper that early.

He had 5 sacks this year, and that is fine because it's not ALL about sacks He also played the run well and got a lot of pressures, but I think 5 sacks is the minimum acceptable. If he can't stay in that 5 to 10 range each year, then I don't think he was worth the pick. Like I said, pressures are good too, but with the 3rd overall pick and $45M in the first three years of his deal, you deserve a guy that can finish. Otherwise you are over paying and he is under performing.

If he can stay healthy and continue to play just like he did this year, no better, no worse....then he is a solid pick, but his next contract should be for less than half of his rookie deal, and he has to prove he can stay healthy first and foremost.


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#40 : January 23, 2013, 04:37:17 PM

I don't disagree with any of that.  Like I said, it was a good start, but it was just a start.  He *has* to be able to stay healthy, and he'd better be realistic about how silly the old CBA made the contracts of top picks.

Benchwarmer#1

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#41 : January 23, 2013, 05:17:12 PM

I don't disagree with any of that.  Like I said, it was a good start, but it was just a start.  He *has* to be able to stay healthy, and he'd better be realistic about how silly the old CBA made the contracts of top picks.

Exactly. With the money he's getting, even a probowl season may not make up for it. Especially one where all he had was five sacks.

I have a hard time seeing fans root for him if he was a high-priced free agent we just brought in. He's getting money that, in most cases, can't be recouperated

I'm glad people around the league, and fans think highly of McCoy, but I need to see at least one season over eight sacks to personally believe he's worth it.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

Dolorous Jason

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#42 : January 23, 2013, 05:26:35 PM

I guess people just expect guys taken top three to be amazing.
Go figure ...

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

Benchwarmer#1

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#43 : January 23, 2013, 05:34:47 PM

I guess people just expect guys taken top three to be amazing.
Go figure ...

Tebow was picked lower and expected to be a starter.

His expectations were made pretty high, and he wasn't picked that early. I think it's safe to say McCoy has expectations to meet, being picked the third overall.

I know watt is a bad comparison, but he was also picked lower.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#44 : January 23, 2013, 05:41:34 PM

Love it. Go GMAC!
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