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watson

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#15 : January 29, 2013, 12:11:31 PM

    Getting a stud DT with a good bull rush will FORCE offenses to double team him, leaving McCoy singled. That in turn allows our DE's to get more sacks off the edge. W/o that push up the middle, opposing QBs easily step up to escape our rushing DE's. When the QB can't step up into his pocket to escape our DE's, he's got a major problem...
    Getting a 'stud' CB only improves us marginally, as he can only cover ONE receiver. Getting a stud DT improves our whole defense. Would rather see us take CBs in the 2nd and/or 3rd, even the 4th.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a good DTs, but I think you've got it all wrong in terms of what CBs can do. A "stud" CB allows you to move the coverages around to help weaker links (a freak like Revis, or once greats like Champ and Aso are even more valuable).

I'll give you a good example, and it doesn't even include a "stud" CB.  According to Football Outsiders the reason why Talib was an important piece for them was because even though he hasn't played all that well, they could stick him on the #2 WR and leave him without much help. That allowed them to move McCourty to S, and it allowed them to shade coverage to match up with #1s.
BR,
I agree that a CB like Revis can have an impact on how defense can be aligned.  But, I don't see a Revis in this draft....Milner is good, but not Revis good.  A DT like Jenkins will not only effect the passing game, but will have an even bigger impact on the running game and coaches always want to make a team one dimensional and if he can tie up multiple blockers and stone them at the LOS then it will free up the LBs much like Sapp used to do for Brooks and Co.  Since it seems...from what I've seen...that there is not a great deal of difference in the CBs in this draft, I would take the space eater and dare the other team to run.   

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#16 : January 29, 2013, 12:33:12 PM

As far as this is concerned the Lions are infamous for taking the guys the majority of us seem to want. I want Milliner, but I won't get my hopes up unless the Lions address corner in free agency.


Formerly known as Revis Islander

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#17 : January 29, 2013, 12:44:46 PM

    Getting a stud DT with a good bull rush will FORCE offenses to double team him, leaving McCoy singled. That in turn allows our DE's to get more sacks off the edge. W/o that push up the middle, opposing QBs easily step up to escape our rushing DE's. When the QB can't step up into his pocket to escape our DE's, he's got a major problem...
    Getting a 'stud' CB only improves us marginally, as he can only cover ONE receiver. Getting a stud DT improves our whole defense. Would rather see us take CBs in the 2nd and/or 3rd, even the 4th.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a good DTs, but I think you've got it all wrong in terms of what CBs can do. A "stud" CB allows you to move the coverages around to help weaker links (a freak like Revis, or once greats like Champ and Aso are even more valuable).

I'll give you a good example, and it doesn't even include a "stud" CB.  According to Football Outsiders the reason why Talib was an important piece for them was because even though he hasn't played all that well, they could stick him on the #2 WR and leave him without much help. That allowed them to move McCourty to S, and it allowed them to shade coverage to match up with #1s.
BR,
I agree that a CB like Revis can have an impact on how defense can be aligned.  But, I don't see a Revis in this draft....Milner is good, but not Revis good.  A DT like Jenkins will not only effect the passing game, but will have an even bigger impact on the running game and coaches always want to make a team one dimensional and if he can tie up multiple blockers and stone them at the LOS then it will free up the LBs much like Sapp used to do for Brooks and Co.  Since it seems...from what I've seen...that there is not a great deal of difference in the CBs in this draft, I would take the space eater and dare the other team to run.

Whoa. You're talking about a Kiff led defense. This defense IS predicated around the run. Schiano has said that many times, and before he even started coaching here.

That "bend, don't break" philosophy does not match up with what Schiano is trying to do. He's calling gameplans that are leaving undrafted corners on an island with elite WR's. To say that CB is not important in this system is plain out silly. We know we have a few guys on the DL that are good, if not possibly great (Clayborn,McCoy,Bennett), which is obviously much more invested into than the CB core.

Drafting high or trading for a DL would be fruitless within this division, where QB's simply are throwing the ball out faster than the DL could possibly get to them. We can talk about disruption, but that's about it. Even probowl worthy McCoy had only 5 sacks on the season.

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#18 : January 29, 2013, 12:55:37 PM

I think if Dee slides you take him as soon as they announce who pick 12 is.

Is he a cat the Bucs should trade up for?  I don't think he is.

I will be curious to see Dee and Banks at the combine.


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#19 : January 29, 2013, 01:12:05 PM

    Getting a stud DT with a good bull rush will FORCE offenses to double team him, leaving McCoy singled. That in turn allows our DE's to get more sacks off the edge. W/o that push up the middle, opposing QBs easily step up to escape our rushing DE's. When the QB can't step up into his pocket to escape our DE's, he's got a major problem...
    Getting a 'stud' CB only improves us marginally, as he can only cover ONE receiver. Getting a stud DT improves our whole defense. Would rather see us take CBs in the 2nd and/or 3rd, even the 4th.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a good DTs, but I think you've got it all wrong in terms of what CBs can do. A "stud" CB allows you to move the coverages around to help weaker links (a freak like Revis, or once greats like Champ and Aso are even more valuable).

I'll give you a good example, and it doesn't even include a "stud" CB.  According to Football Outsiders the reason why Talib was an important piece for them was because even though he hasn't played all that well, they could stick him on the #2 WR and leave him without much help. That allowed them to move McCourty to S, and it allowed them to shade coverage to match up with #1s.
BR,
I agree that a CB like Revis can have an impact on how defense can be aligned.  But, I don't see a Revis in this draft....Milner is good, but not Revis good.  A DT like Jenkins will not only effect the passing game, but will have an even bigger impact on the running game and coaches always want to make a team one dimensional and if he can tie up multiple blockers and stone them at the LOS then it will free up the LBs much like Sapp used to do for Brooks and Co.  Since it seems...from what I've seen...that there is not a great deal of difference in the CBs in this draft, I would take the space eater and dare the other team to run.

Whoa. You're talking about a Kiff led defense. This defense IS predicated around the run. Schiano has said that many times, and before he even started coaching here.

That "bend, don't break" philosophy does not match up with what Schiano is trying to do. He's calling gameplans that are leaving undrafted corners on an island with elite WR's. To say that CB is not important in this system is plain out silly. We know we have a few guys on the DL that are good, if not possibly great (Clayborn,McCoy,Bennett), which is obviously much more invested into than the CB core.

Drafting high or trading for a DL would be fruitless within this division, where QB's simply are throwing the ball out faster than the DL could possibly get to them. We can talk about disruption, but that's about it. Even probowl worthy McCoy had only 5 sacks on the season.

Yea its nice to fill up the DT need and all but no matter what they do they need to address the CB position more than anything. Hopefully they make some moves in FA and that makes the draft pick flexible to a DT or BPA.

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#20 : January 29, 2013, 01:12:38 PM

I think if Dee slides you take him as soon as they announce who pick 12 is.

Is he a cat the Bucs should trade up for?  I don't think he is.

I will be curious to see Dee and Banks at the combine.

I'm very curious to see Rhodes 40 time,  I think speed at corner especially man corners is important.  Joe Haden should me it's not everything.

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#21 : January 29, 2013, 01:41:12 PM

    Getting a stud DT with a good bull rush will FORCE offenses to double team him, leaving McCoy singled. That in turn allows our DE's to get more sacks off the edge. W/o that push up the middle, opposing QBs easily step up to escape our rushing DE's. When the QB can't step up into his pocket to escape our DE's, he's got a major problem...
    Getting a 'stud' CB only improves us marginally, as he can only cover ONE receiver. Getting a stud DT improves our whole defense. Would rather see us take CBs in the 2nd and/or 3rd, even the 4th.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a good DTs, but I think you've got it all wrong in terms of what CBs can do. A "stud" CB allows you to move the coverages around to help weaker links (a freak like Revis, or once greats like Champ and Aso are even more valuable).

I'll give you a good example, and it doesn't even include a "stud" CB.  According to Football Outsiders the reason why Talib was an important piece for them was because even though he hasn't played all that well, they could stick him on the #2 WR and leave him without much help. That allowed them to move McCourty to S, and it allowed them to shade coverage to match up with #1s.
BR,
I agree that a CB like Revis can have an impact on how defense can be aligned.  But, I don't see a Revis in this draft....Milner is good, but not Revis good.  A DT like Jenkins will not only effect the passing game, but will have an even bigger impact on the running game and coaches always want to make a team one dimensional and if he can tie up multiple blockers and stone them at the LOS then it will free up the LBs much like Sapp used to do for Brooks and Co.  Since it seems...from what I've seen...that there is not a great deal of difference in the CBs in this draft, I would take the space eater and dare the other team to run.

Watson, I'm not arguing whether it's more or less important -  I think it depends on who the other players are, and what the schemes are.

I'm disagreeing with his notion that a CB only handles one guy (and even if it is one guy, what if that one guy is Julio Jones?). As I pointed out, Talib made a difference in NE even though he didn't do all that well on his "one guy." And most of us agree he's no "stud."

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#22 : January 29, 2013, 01:47:15 PM

    Getting a stud DT with a good bull rush will FORCE offenses to double team him, leaving McCoy singled. That in turn allows our DE's to get more sacks off the edge. W/o that push up the middle, opposing QBs easily step up to escape our rushing DE's. When the QB can't step up into his pocket to escape our DE's, he's got a major problem...
    Getting a 'stud' CB only improves us marginally, as he can only cover ONE receiver. Getting a stud DT improves our whole defense. Would rather see us take CBs in the 2nd and/or 3rd, even the 4th.

I don't disagree with the benefits of a good DTs, but I think you've got it all wrong in terms of what CBs can do. A "stud" CB allows you to move the coverages around to help weaker links (a freak like Revis, or once greats like Champ and Aso are even more valuable).

I'll give you a good example, and it doesn't even include a "stud" CB.  According to Football Outsiders the reason why Talib was an important piece for them was because even though he hasn't played all that well, they could stick him on the #2 WR and leave him without much help. That allowed them to move McCourty to S, and it allowed them to shade coverage to match up with #1s.
BR,
I agree that a CB like Revis can have an impact on how defense can be aligned.  But, I don't see a Revis in this draft....Milner is good, but not Revis good.  A DT like Jenkins will not only effect the passing game, but will have an even bigger impact on the running game and coaches always want to make a team one dimensional and if he can tie up multiple blockers and stone them at the LOS then it will free up the LBs much like Sapp used to do for Brooks and Co.  Since it seems...from what I've seen...that there is not a great deal of difference in the CBs in this draft, I would take the space eater and dare the other team to run.

Whoa. You're talking about a Kiff led defense. This defense IS predicated around the run. Schiano has said that many times, and before he even started coaching here.

That "bend, don't break" philosophy does not match up with what Schiano is trying to do. He's calling gameplans that are leaving undrafted corners on an island with elite WR's. To say that CB is not important in this system is plain out silly. We know we have a few guys on the DL that are good, if not possibly great (Clayborn,McCoy,Bennett), which is obviously much more invested into than the CB core.

Drafting high or trading for a DL would be fruitless within this division, where QB's simply are throwing the ball out faster than the DL could possibly get to them. We can talk about disruption, but that's about it. Even probowl worthy McCoy had only 5 sacks on the season.

Yea its nice to fill up the DT need and all but no matter what they do they need to address the CB position more than anything. Hopefully they make some moves in FA and that makes the draft pick flexible to a DT or BPA.

Right BB. The overall need for CB(s) surpasses the "want" of a DL.

I LOVE a good passrush, but we aren't there yet and we're not going to be anytime in the near future. Brees and Ryan have seen every passrush known to man, and Cam can escape using his physicality, rather than knowledge the others use. Not too many teams are going to sack QB's in this division. Overall knowledge, quickness, or good OL play will stop that rather quickly.

Spending mid-level draft picks are fine (heck, even the 2nd) if we're planning on replacing Miller, or looking for respectable 2nd stringers. The ONLY way I see Domano picking a DT/DE in the first, is if they have already signed Revis (without using first somehow), or have already settled for two solid FA CB's.

Just to be fair though, Dom doesn't seem to like drafting OL in the first two rounds, but he sure does seem to love drafting DL. So judging by history, I suppose it's completely possible Dom drafts a DL guy. I guess we'll have to see what he (and the Glazers) thinks when FA opens for business. If he does sign a notable CB, I think we then start to question his draft ideology.

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#23 : January 29, 2013, 02:32:39 PM

In the first round it should be BAP over reaching for a need position. We should draft an impact lineman, either O or D over a CB who is questionable and more plentiful at a better value from the 2nd to the 4th rounds.

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#24 : January 29, 2013, 02:44:26 PM


I LOVE a good passrush, but we aren't there yet and we're not going to be anytime in the near future. Brees and Ryan have seen every passrush known to man, and Cam can escape using his physicality, rather than knowledge the others use. Not too many teams are going to sack QB's in this division. Overall knowledge, quickness, or good OL play will stop that rather quickly.


Cam was one of the most sacked QBs in the league. Brees was sacked 26 times, and Ryan 28.

It isn't impossible.

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#25 : January 29, 2013, 03:23:02 PM

    Very good discussion here!
    No doubt getting a stud CB allows teams to shift their coverages, and the QB may avoid throwing in the stud CB's area. But if the QB still has all day to throw, he's likely to find someone open. A stud DT who can collapse the pocket is a QB's worst nightmare, as he can no longer safely step up in the pocket. If there's one there who's worthy of the 13th pick, I'd take him in a heartbeat. I'm no expert on the quality of this draft class, but I've read there are many linemen out there worthy of a first round selection.

    Battles in the NFL are still won at the LOS, and not being able to collapse the pocket, especially on 3rd down, puts a hurtin' on our whole defense, IMO, and needs to be fixed.

    And besides CB, I think we also need better overall quality at LB. Even if Black comes back, he does not appear to be the answer. DC's need to figure out how to deal with the emergence of highly mobile QBs this past season, and the answer may be more mobile LBs, a la Lavonte David. I would love to see us move Foster to SLB and nab another Lavonte David clone. With David's apparent emergence as our team leader on D, if there's a real mobile WLB in the draft maybe David could slide into Foster's spot at MLB. Just a thought.

    I'm not advocating taking position "X" in the first round and position "Y" in the 2nd. Especially in round 1, BPA rules. As the perceived quality gap between players narrows later in the draft, we all know BPA becomes much less important... It's just that CB can be so overrated; that mindset has put the Jets in cap heck, and they aren't near the Super Bowl they envisioned when they snapped up all those 'stud' CBs. Neither are the Eagles...

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#26 : January 29, 2013, 03:28:52 PM

What?

The Jets D dragged Marc Sanchez' sorry a-- to back-to-back conference championships.


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#27 : January 29, 2013, 06:10:38 PM

"What's the chances of  Dee Milliner falling to Buccaneers?"

Not good. Not good, at all.

Banks or Rhodes will suffice.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

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#28 : January 29, 2013, 09:13:58 PM

will be curious to see if a meaningless win to end the season causes us to miss out on him
A meaningless win against the Falcons?  Really!  I don't think so.  Anyway what are we supposed to do, throw the game?




They could of played second stringers, see how they look in a real game.  Instead of just seeing them in practice.


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#29 : January 29, 2013, 09:21:24 PM

will be curious to see if a meaningless win to end the season causes us to miss out on him
A meaningless win against the Falcons?  Really!  I don't think so.  Anyway what are we supposed to do, throw the game?


Absolutely not. Just an observation made because some mentioned how great that win was for us....an observation i disagree with.

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