Does Josh Freeman have a chance to be Elite ?

[Detrimental]

That long pass he completed, the WR's were completely covered were the deep routes were 100% developed. He extended the play due to great pass blocking and his legs and route adjustment by Q.

Flacco's pocket awareness is suspect too. Both sides would close in on him at times and he'd just sit there looking Freeman like when he got sacked.

Seems your idea of 'great pass blocking' and 'suspect pocket awareness' is a lil different from mine. FYI.... Flacco only took 2 sacks.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000135072/Boldin-makes-amazing-catch

Oh I thought you were referring to the other Q play. Needless to say, Flacco did take 2 sacks but how he just sat in the pocket and let the pocket collapse on him before he even thought about looking off his reads shows suspect pocket awareness. He isn't the god send you make him to be. Which is the point of me calling out the hype.

[jhop88]

Neither Kaepernick nor Flacco played "average" getting their teams to this point. Flacco is about to cement himself in that echelon of QB with Ben R. and Eli. Not elite, but  a pretty good QB.

So, when Flacco throws balls up for grabs to Boldin and makes easy throws when Jones and Smith burn their CB's by a good 4 or 5 steps, he's considered pretty good, but when Freeman does it, he sucks and V-Jax and Mike Williams get all the credit. Which one is it man? Can't have it both ways.

Cause EVERY throw that Flacco has thrown these playoffs has been a jumpball....

He is putting the ball in spot where his guys can make plays and has been incredibly consistent. Of course he is a very good QB. Don't worry...admitting Flacco is very good doesn't diminish Freeman...Freeman does that himself with his inaccuracy and poor decision making.

You are 100% correct, and that is why average QBs win Super Bowls when they have good teams around them....Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, Trent Dilfer, Ben Rothlisberger....etc....

So Flacco, Eli, and Big Ben are "average?"

SMH, seriously?

What is Josh Freeman then in your opinion? TERRIBLE I hope

[chace1986]

I watched grade A pass blocking on 85% of those snaps. I'm willing to bet any decent QB can make good throws when given time.

The elite ones can make the good throws under duress. I'm not ready to crown Flacco or Kap yet.

Did you not notice how many sacks Flacco escaped tonite..... and made plays?  On that long pass to Boldin, Freeman either succombs to the sack or throws that ball outta bounds. No doubt about it.

For an immobile guy, Flacco sure was elusive tonight.  OTOH, Josh is the most immobile "Mobile, Athletic QB" I've ever seen.  But that too isn't his fault, he's just following orders....

Gotta remember to blame the defense as well. Might as well go into full excuse mode. 

[1sparkybuc]

I'd love to see him improve as much as anyone else.  I'll be every bit as pleased as every apologist if he becomes a "very good" QB.   I just no longer believe he has it in him.  And anyone who saw Josh as doing anything either of those two QBs did tonight and through the postseason they are deluding themselves.  Maybe it helps you feel more like a fan to focus on the positives and make excuses, but I'm done with the excuses.  That doesn't make me any more "agenda" driven than those who constantly support his lacklustre play.  Neither Flacco or Kap was flawless today, but Josh doesn't play like that, ever.

Truth

NOT. During the 4-1 stretch Freeman led the league in several categories.

Kap has had two years in a row in the same system, with the same coaches, and with most of the same players. He's had a stable situation and a great defense backing him up. Flacco has had five years of quality coaching in the same system, ALSO with a dynamic defense to back him up. Freeman has had four years of turmoil. Everything has changed and yet he still holds franchise records. He is erratic and he is inconsistent, but he is still the most prolific passer we have ever had. Odds are he will improve in his second season. Odds are he will set new single season records. Odds are our pass defense will improve and we will win more games. A solid OL and a year's worth of experience in the same system with the same receivers, has to mean a decent shot at the playoffs. A four game slide killed any hopes we had for the playoffs. Very few predicted the Bucs would be in contention at all. None of you who are attacking Freeman now said anything about the Bucs being contenders. You followed the media lead that they had no shot at all. I predicted a minimum of nine wins, but we lost two starters on the OL, our two starting CBs, and never had Clayborn and Bowers on the field at the same time. IMO that was the difference. We would have won at least two more games with them in the lineup.

PR says many of the players read these boards. I post nothing here that I wouldn't say directly to a player or coach's face. The same goes for Mark Dominik. Some of his contracts have really been stupid. On the plus side, he's made some really great moves like moving up to draft Martin. The thing with Freeman, he needs fans, not trolls. It's etched in stone, he will be our starting QB come September. It is possible to be critical and supportive at the same time. It took Flacco five years to get to the SB, and he had a much more stable environment. Year two with Greg Schiano should work wonders for Freeman. Even without knowing what the Bucs will do in the draft and free agency, I'm predicting a minimum of ten wins in 2013.

[BucBalla85]

I'd love to see him improve as much as anyone else.  I'll be every bit as pleased as every apologist if he becomes a "very good" QB.   I just no longer believe he has it in him.  And anyone who saw Josh as doing anything either of those two QBs did tonight and through the postseason they are deluding themselves.  Maybe it helps you feel more like a fan to focus on the positives and make excuses, but I'm done with the excuses.  That doesn't make me any more "agenda" driven than those who constantly support his lacklustre play.  Neither Flacco or Kap was flawless today, but Josh doesn't play like that, ever.

Truth

NOT. During the 4-1 stretch Freeman led the league in several categories.

Kap has had two years in a row in the same system, with the same coaches, and with most of the same players. He's had a stable situation and a great defense backing him up. Flacco has had five years of quality coaching in the same system, ALSO with a dynamic defense to back him up. Freeman has had four years of turmoil. Everything has changed and yet he still holds franchise records. He is erratic and he is inconsistent, but he is still the most prolific passer we have ever had. Odds are he will improve in his second season. Odds are he will set new single season records. Odds are our pass defense will improve and we will win more games. A solid OL and a year's worth of experience in the same system with the same receivers, has to mean a decent shot at the playoffs. A four game slide killed any hopes we had for the playoffs. Very few predicted the Bucs would be in contention at all. None of you who are attacking Freeman now said anything about the Bucs being contenders. You followed the media lead that they had no shot at all. I predicted a minimum of nine wins, but we lost two starters on the OL, our two starting CBs, and never had Clayborn and Bowers on the field at the same time. IMO that was the difference. We would have won at least two more games with them in the lineup.

PR says many of the players read these boards. I post nothing here that I wouldn't say directly to a player or coach's face. The same goes for Mark Dominik. Some of his contracts have really been stupid. On the plus side, he's made some really great moves like moving up to draft Martin. The thing with Freeman, he needs fans, not trolls. It's etched in stone, he will be our starting QB come September. It is possible to be critical and supportive at the same time. It took Flacco five years to get to the SB, and he had a much more stable environment. Year two with Greg Schiano should work wonders for Freeman. Even without knowing what the Bucs will do in the draft and free agency, I'm predicting a minimum of ten wins in 2013.

Dude those are excuses.... lol

I agree. Its still too early to write him off. Its not surprising to me though that fans have done that. Its a what have you done for me lately league and its like a stock market. When Freeman played well this year you didnt hear any complaining about him and when he sucked he got all the blame. He played well at times last year and it wasnt like he sucked all year. To fans you are what your last game was. Flacco was up and down all year too but he played on a good team. Freeman played on a mediocre team. Now Flacco goes and wins a sb and is now worth around 20 mil dollars. His stock is high so fans are all over him while Freemans team lost a bunch of games at the end of the year and his stock is way down to fans. Freeman will get this year as he will be another year in this system and will get a bunch of time here to fix his game. If he does that and the team improves then they will improve as a team. It wont be just because Freeman improved his game, it will be because the entire team improved.

[1sparkybuc]

Our offense and the Ravens' defense would definitely be a playoff team, but I like our future as a team. We have a future where the Raven's have more of a past. 2013 is going to be a great year to be a Buc fan. It's going to suck for our resident trolls

[chace1986]

I'd love to see him improve as much as anyone else.  I'll be every bit as pleased as every apologist if he becomes a "very good" QB.   I just no longer believe he has it in him.  And anyone who saw Josh as doing anything either of those two QBs did tonight and through the postseason they are deluding themselves.  Maybe it helps you feel more like a fan to focus on the positives and make excuses, but I'm done with the excuses.  That doesn't make me any more "agenda" driven than those who constantly support his lacklustre play.  Neither Flacco or Kap was flawless today, but Josh doesn't play like that, ever.

Truth

NOT. During the 4-1 stretch Freeman led the league in several categories.

Maybe at the owners meetings they will decide that instead of overall record making teams postseason eligible....it should be determined by a teams best 5 game run.

Kap has had two years in a row in the same system, with the same coaches, and with most of the same players. He's had a stable situation and a great defense backing him up. Flacco has had five years of quality coaching in the same system, ALSO with a dynamic defense to back him up.

Josh will never be as dynamic as Kaepernick, and Flacco always has been a better and more accurate pocket passer with the ability to go through progressions and read the defense. Kaepernick is only 10 games in and may fizzle out, but Flacco has proven himself to be a good QB...not elite, but good. As far as the "dynamic defense" backing up Flacco, they actually weren't all that dynamic this year.

Freeman has had four years of turmoil. Everything has changed and yet he still holds franchise records.

So would Jon Kitna if he put up the same #s that he did in Detroit. The "he holds franchise records" crap people spew is a joke. There is not a rich and storied offensive history with this franchise. In today's passing league, a lot of teams are breaking franchise records. It's nice that you and other Freepologists are so proud of the Bucs reocords that Josh holds...but they seriously mean nothing in the context of 2013 NFL football.

He is erratic and he is inconsistent, but he is still the most prolific passer we have ever had. Odds are he will improve in his second season.

Hopefully he does improve in his 5th year, but I wouldn't say that the "odds" are exactly in his favor, given how inconsistent he has been since 2009.

Odds are he will set new single season records.

That mean nothing.

Odds are our pass defense will improve and we will win more games.

Pass defense should improve with the amount of $ and picks that could be dedicated to that area, but that alone will not guarantee more wins.

A solid OL and a year's worth of experience in the same system with the same receivers, has to mean a decent shot at the playoffs.

Despite the injuries, the OL was actually solid last year. Credit to Bostad on that one. Yes, hopefully chemistry between all aspects of the offense improves in the 2nd year. They stand just as much of a shot at the postseason as anyone else in the division.

A four game slide killed any hopes we had for the playoffs.

Along with starting the year 1-3.

Very few predicted the Bucs would be in contention at all. None of you who are attacking Freeman now said anything about the Bucs being contenders.

...and in the last month and a half of football, they weren't in realistic contention. As far as "attacking" Freeman. You seem to see criticism as attacking, because it's not something that you personally want to hear/see. Sure, there are some who attack Freeman in a personal manner, such as, "I hope he gets hit by a bus"...but most of the "attacking" you speak of are criticisms to the play that he puts "on film". Pointing out that he has issues going through reads, problems with accuracy, etc...is hardly "attacking".

You followed the media lead that they had no shot at all. I predicted a minimum of nine wins, but we lost two starters on the OL, our two starting CBs, and never had Clayborn and Bowers on the field at the same time. IMO that was the difference. We would have won at least two more games with them in the lineup.

Every team in the NFL has injuries. The good teams find ways to overcome. Green Bay had a plethora of starters hit the DL two years back, but that didn't prevent them from hoisting the Lombardi. Just because you didn't factor in injuries or the lack of quality depth on this roster, doesn't make you any less wrong on your prediction. Sure, everyone here is wrong at times in their predictions...but at least have the stones not to try and wiggle out of it by slapping down a "well, only if.." card.

PR says many of the players read these boards. I post nothing here that I wouldn't say directly to a player or coach's face. The same goes for Mark Dominik.

As would a lot of people. The difference is, some people don't sugar coat things to tooth-rotting proportions.

Some of his contracts have really been stupid. On the plus side, he's made some really great moves like moving up to draft Martin.

Agreed.

The thing with Freeman, he needs fans, not trolls. It's etched in stone, he will be our starting QB come September.

What he needs to do is not pay any attention to WTF the fans are saying, and he needs to develop some sort of an ability to go through progressions....and yes, he will be the starting QB come Sept.

It is possible to be critical and supportive at the same time. It took Flacco five years to get to the SB, and he had a much more stable environment.

Flacco is a natural pocket passer and is much more accurate. Comparing the two is not fair. Josh Freeman needs to be the next Josh Freeman. Do what suites him best. Use that athleticism. Unfortunately he does not have the same environment that Flacco has enjoyed, he needs to roll with it and play lights out next year. No more excuses.

Year two with Greg Schiano should work wonders for Freeman.

Hope so.

Even without knowing what the Bucs will do in the draft and free agency, I'm predicting a minimum of ten wins in 2013.

Once again, hope so.

[1sparkybuc]

chace1986

It's not sugar coating anything to say that our offense coupled with even an average pass defense would have been in the playoffs this year.  Maybe you were born in 1986 and just don't remember all the garbage the Bucs have had on the team as a whole and at QB in particular. We've had some real stinkers and none of them led an outstanding offense. This offense right now is far and away the most dynamic we have ever had and it's going to get a lot better. Freeman is streaky bad at times, but he's also streaky good. That's the part that you ignore and you can't stand it that I don't agree with you. The highest point total in franchise history and you aren't satisfied or excited about what might be in a second season with Schiano. You focus on anything negative and ignore everything positive. It's hard for me to believe you are a fan and not a troll.

[chace1986]

chace1986

It's not sugar coating anything to say that our offense coupled with even an average pass defense would have been in the playoffs this year.  Maybe you were born in 1986 and just don't remember all the garbage the Bucs have had on the team as a whole and at QB in particular. We've had some real stinkers and none of them led an outstanding offense. This offense right now is far and away the most dynamic we have ever had and it's going to get a lot better. Freeman is streaky bad at times, but he's also streaky good. That's the part that you ignore and you can't stand it that I don't agree with you. The highest point total in franchise history and you aren't satisfied or excited about what might be in a second season with Schiano. You focus on anything negative and ignore everything positive. It's hard for me to believe you are a fan and not a troll.

I never said that Freeman doesn't have streaks where he is good. I actually am perfectly fine with us not agreeing on any particular subject...that's not gonna prevent me from calling "BS" when I feel it is needed. As far as "the highest point total in franchise history"...that does nothing for me because I have the ability to but those #s into the context of today's game.

To the bold above....You seem to be the one who is ignoring....

Year two with Greg Schiano should work wonders for Freeman.

Hope so.

Even without knowing what the Bucs will do in the draft and free agency, I'm predicting a minimum of ten wins in 2013.

Once again, hope so.

[RogerGoodellSucks]

Neither Kaepernick nor Flacco played "average" getting their teams to this point. Flacco is about to cement himself in that echelon of QB with Ben R. and Eli. Not elite, but  a pretty good QB.

So, when Flacco throws balls up for grabs to Boldin and makes easy throws when Jones and Smith burn their CB's by a good 4 or 5 steps, he's considered pretty good, but when Freeman does it, he sucks and V-Jax and Mike Williams get all the credit. Which one is it man? Can't have it both ways.

If you can't see the difference between what Flacco did and what Josh does, it very clearly explains your rabid Freepology.  There is no comparison there.

The dude will say and reach for anything to try and sh*t on other QBs to attempt to make Freeman appear less crappy.

Neither of you answered the question. Fact is, when Freeman does that, you guys say it's all on Williams and V-Jax, but when Flacco does it, they're just good throws.

I'll ask again. Which one is it?

[chace1986]

Neither Kaepernick nor Flacco played "average" getting their teams to this point. Flacco is about to cement himself in that echelon of QB with Ben R. and Eli. Not elite, but  a pretty good QB.

So, when Flacco throws balls up for grabs to Boldin and makes easy throws when Jones and Smith burn their CB's by a good 4 or 5 steps, he's considered pretty good, but when Freeman does it, he sucks and V-Jax and Mike Williams get all the credit. Which one is it man? Can't have it both ways.

If you can't see the difference between what Flacco did and what Josh does, it very clearly explains your rabid Freepology.  There is no comparison there.

The dude will say and reach for anything to try and sh*t on other QBs to attempt to make Freeman appear less crappy.

Neither of you answered the question. Fact is, when Freeman does that, you guys say it's all on Williams and V-Jax, but when Flacco does it, they're just good throws.

I'll ask again. Which one is it?

Personally, I don't think Flacco and Freeman are all that different when it comes to the deep ball. Both guys have good WRs that make plays. Flacco has the ability to put his unique arch on the ball, but they both hit and miss on the long ball.

The difference between the 2 QBs comes about when you start talking about the short-intermediate passes, decision making, and going through their progressions.

[RogerGoodellSucks]

Neither Kaepernick nor Flacco played "average" getting their teams to this point. Flacco is about to cement himself in that echelon of QB with Ben R. and Eli. Not elite, but  a pretty good QB.

So, when Flacco throws balls up for grabs to Boldin and makes easy throws when Jones and Smith burn their CB's by a good 4 or 5 steps, he's considered pretty good, but when Freeman does it, he sucks and V-Jax and Mike Williams get all the credit. Which one is it man? Can't have it both ways.

If you can't see the difference between what Flacco did and what Josh does, it very clearly explains your rabid Freepology.  There is no comparison there.

The dude will say and reach for anything to try and sh*t on other QBs to attempt to make Freeman appear less crappy.

Neither of you answered the question. Fact is, when Freeman does that, you guys say it's all on Williams and V-Jax, but when Flacco does it, they're just good throws.

I'll ask again. Which one is it?

Personally, I don't think Flacco and Freeman are all that different when it comes to the deep ball. Both guys have good WRs that make plays. Flacco has the ability to put his unique arch on the ball, but they both hit and miss on the long ball.

The difference between the 2 QBs comes about when you start talking about the short-intermediate passes, decision making, and going through their progressions.

I agree that Flacco has better accuracy on short-immediate passes, not sure about decision making though. Flacco makes a lot of boneheaded throws, and it helps that he usually doesn't have to force things because he has a good defense that usually doesn't put him behind in games. I think determining if a Quarterback is going through their progressions is tough to tell. You can't really see where his eyes are looking at. I will say though that sometimes it is obvious that Freeman is locked on one guy or one side of the field.

[caradoc]

Neither Kaepernick nor Flacco played "average" getting their teams to this point. Flacco is about to cement himself in that echelon of QB with Ben R. and Eli. Not elite, but  a pretty good QB.

So, when Flacco throws balls up for grabs to Boldin and makes easy throws when Jones and Smith burn their CB's by a good 4 or 5 steps, he's considered pretty good, but when Freeman does it, he sucks and V-Jax and Mike Williams get all the credit. Which one is it man? Can't have it both ways.

If you can't see the difference between what Flacco did and what Josh does, it very clearly explains your rabid Freepology.  There is no comparison there.

The dude will say and reach for anything to try and sh*t on other QBs to attempt to make Freeman appear less crappy.

Neither of you answered the question. Fact is, when Freeman does that, you guys say it's all on Williams and V-Jax, but when Flacco does it, they're just good throws.

I'll ask again. Which one is it?

Personally, I don't think Flacco and Freeman are all that different when it comes to the deep ball. Both guys have good WRs that make plays. Flacco has the ability to put his unique arch on the ball, but they both hit and miss on the long ball.

The difference between the 2 QBs comes about when you start talking about the short-intermediate passes, decision making, and going through their progressions.

That's about it in a nutshell, although I think Flacco is somewhat better at the deep ball than Josh.  He's not consistently accurate, but he's not always throwing jumpers either.  The main thing though, is that Flacco can do other things as well.  With Josh, well, he can chuck it deep and not a damn thing else.

[Hate]

That long pass he completed, the WR's were completely covered were the deep routes were 100% developed. He extended the play due to great pass blocking and his legs and route adjustment by Q.

Flacco's pocket awareness is suspect too. Both sides would close in on him at times and he'd just sit there looking Freeman like when he got sacked.

Seems your idea of 'great pass blocking' and 'suspect pocket awareness' is a lil different from mine. FYI.... Flacco only took 2 sacks.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000135072/Boldin-makes-amazing-catch

Oh I thought you were referring to the other Q play. Needless to say, Flacco did take 2 sacks but how he just sat in the pocket and let the pocket collapse on him before he even thought about looking off his reads shows suspect pocket awareness. He isn't the god send you make him to be. Which is the point of me calling out the hype.

The God send I've made him out to be. When? Where?

[Hate]

I'd love to see him improve as much as anyone else.  I'll be every bit as pleased as every apologist if he becomes a "very good" QB.   I just no longer believe he has it in him.  And anyone who saw Josh as doing anything either of those two QBs did tonight and through the postseason they are deluding themselves.  Maybe it helps you feel more like a fan to focus on the positives and make excuses, but I'm done with the excuses.  That doesn't make me any more "agenda" driven than those who constantly support his lacklustre play.  Neither Flacco or Kap was flawless today, but Josh doesn't play like that, ever.

Truth

NOT. During the 4-1 stretch Freeman led the league in several categories.

Kap has had two years in a row in the same system, with the same coaches, and with most of the same players. He's had a stable situation and a great defense backing him up. Flacco has had five years of quality coaching in the same system, ALSO with a dynamic defense to back him up. Freeman has had four years of turmoil. Everything has changed and yet he still holds franchise records. He is erratic and he is inconsistent, but he is still the most prolific passer we have ever had. Odds are he will improve in his second season. Odds are he will set new single season records. Odds are our pass defense will improve and we will win more games. A solid OL and a year's worth of experience in the same system with the same receivers, has to mean a decent shot at the playoffs. A four game slide killed any hopes we had for the playoffs. Very few predicted the Bucs would be in contention at all. None of you who are attacking Freeman now said anything about the Bucs being contenders. You followed the media lead that they had no shot at all. I predicted a minimum of nine wins, but we lost two starters on the OL, our two starting CBs, and never had Clayborn and Bowers on the field at the same time. IMO that was the difference. We would have won at least two more games with them in the lineup.

PR says many of the players read these boards. I post nothing here that I wouldn't say directly to a player or coach's face. The same goes for Mark Dominik. Some of his contracts have really been stupid. On the plus side, he's made some really great moves like moving up to draft Martin. The thing with Freeman, he needs fans, not trolls. It's etched in stone, he will be our starting QB come September. It is possible to be critical and supportive at the same time. It took Flacco five years to get to the SB, and he had a much more stable environment. Year two with Greg Schiano should work wonders for Freeman. Even without knowing what the Bucs will do in the draft and free agency, I'm predicting a minimum of ten wins in 2013.

Dude those are excuses.... lol

I agree. Its still too early to write him off. Its not surprising to me though that fans have done that. Its a what have you done for me lately league and its like a stock market. When Freeman played well this year you didnt hear any complaining about him and when he sucked he got all the blame. He played well at times last year and it wasnt like he sucked all year. To fans you are what your last game was. Flacco was up and down all year too but he played on a good team. Freeman played on a mediocre team. Now Flacco goes and wins a sb and is now worth around 20 mil dollars. His stock is high so fans are all over him while Freemans team lost a bunch of games at the end of the year and his stock is way down to fans. Freeman will get this year as he will be another year in this system and will get a bunch of time here to fix his game. If he does that and the team improves then they will improve as a team. It wont be just because Freeman improved his game, it will be because the entire team improved.

My assessment of Free has nothing to do with win/loss record or not making the postseason. For me, its about his inconsistency, inaccuracy, mental lapses and lack of development for a QB 4 yrs in...... and contrary to popular belief, the crappy ass secondary has nothing to do with that.