Does Josh Freeman have a chance to be Elite ?

[Pewter Pirate]

Josh is not elite, and Josh is inconsistently a middle of the pack QB.  I will take middle of the pack QB over the bottom of the pack QB any day.  Middle of the pack QBs are inconsistent, but also win Superbowls (Eli Manning twice in the past few years).  Between Kapernick and Flacco a middle of the pack QB is going to win the Super Bowl this year.

After suffering through years of Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese, Chris Simms, Leftwitch, Gradkowski, etc.... (bottom of the barrel QBs), I am fine with having a middle of the pack QB.  Would I rather have an elite QB, sure I would.  Outside of Brees, Brady, Rogers there are no other elite QBs.  They are rare.  I am not counting rookies at this point (the fall of Freeman and Newton show you cannot rely on rookie performances).  Peyton Manning is no longer elite.  Eli Manning is no different than Freeman, he is a middle of the pack inconsistent QB. 

I am fine with Freeman as our QB unless we find an elite QB in the draft.  I have accepted that.  The excuses of not having the same coordinator and being only 22, 23, 24, 25, etc.. is old.  Freeman is middle of the pack inconsistent.  Elite QB's rarely hit free agency, and there are none in the upcoming draft.  I would rather have Freeman.

No offense, but you SHOULD expect more out of him.  He is not some stiff signed off the street. Dude was a #17 pick in the first round.  If your a GM and you miss on draft picks that high, you won't have a job for long.  I think all the excuses are played out now, its time to produce this season, or they will have to swing into plan B, whatever that might be.   I hope he takes the next step, and balls to a high level for every game in 2013.  No one wants him to succeed more than me.

Of course I want better, but he is not elite, and never will be. Every fan wants an elite QB, but there are only 3 of them in the league.   I am more concerned about winning a SB.  Elite QBs are rare was my point.  If I cannot have elite, I am fine with middle of the pack QB.  A lot of middle if the pack QBs win Super Bowls.  I am fine with Freeman at this point

Brady, Brees, Rodgers





I may have misunderstood your meaning of "elite"  and "middle of the pack".   I guess everyone has a different definition of those terms.  But you sayin there are only 3 "elite" QB's in the league explains it.

[The Anti-Java]

Josh is not elite, and Josh is inconsistently a middle of the pack QB.  I will take middle of the pack QB over the bottom of the pack QB any day.  Middle of the pack QBs are inconsistent, but also win Superbowls (Eli Manning twice in the past few years).  Between Kapernick and Flacco a middle of the pack QB is going to win the Super Bowl this year.

After suffering through years of Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese, Chris Simms, Leftwitch, Gradkowski, etc.... (bottom of the barrel QBs), I am fine with having a middle of the pack QB.  Would I rather have an elite QB, sure I would.  Outside of Brees, Brady, Rogers there are no other elite QBs.  They are rare.  I am not counting rookies at this point (the fall of Freeman and Newton show you cannot rely on rookie performances).  Peyton Manning is no longer elite.  Eli Manning is no different than Freeman, he is a middle of the pack inconsistent QB. 

I am fine with Freeman as our QB unless we find an elite QB in the draft.  I have accepted that.  The excuses of not having the same coordinator and being only 22, 23, 24, 25, etc.. is old.  Freeman is middle of the pack inconsistent.  Elite QB's rarely hit free agency, and there are none in the upcoming draft.  I would rather have Freeman.

No offense, but you SHOULD expect more out of him.  He is not some stiff signed off the street. Dude was a #17 pick in the first round.  If your a GM and you miss on draft picks that high, you won't have a job for long.  I think all the excuses are played out now, its time to produce this season, or they will have to swing into plan B, whatever that might be.   I hope he takes the next step, and balls to a high level for every game in 2013.  No one wants him to succeed more than me.

Of course I want better, but he is not elite, and never will be. Every fan wants an elite QB, but there are only 3 of them in the league.   I am more concerned about winning a SB.  Elite QBs are rare was my point.  If I cannot have elite, I am fine with middle of the pack QB.  A lot of middle if the pack QBs win Super Bowls.  I am fine with Freeman at this point

Brady, Brees, Rodgers





I may have misunderstood your meaning of "elite"  and "middle of the pack".   I guess everyone has a different definition of those terms.  But you sayin there are only 3 "elite" QB's in the league explains it.

No Mannings?

[Pewter Pirate]

Josh is not elite, and Josh is inconsistently a middle of the pack QB.  I will take middle of the pack QB over the bottom of the pack QB any day.  Middle of the pack QBs are inconsistent, but also win Superbowls (Eli Manning twice in the past few years).  Between Kapernick and Flacco a middle of the pack QB is going to win the Super Bowl this year.

After suffering through years of Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese, Chris Simms, Leftwitch, Gradkowski, etc.... (bottom of the barrel QBs), I am fine with having a middle of the pack QB.  Would I rather have an elite QB, sure I would.  Outside of Brees, Brady, Rogers there are no other elite QBs.  They are rare.  I am not counting rookies at this point (the fall of Freeman and Newton show you cannot rely on rookie performances).  Peyton Manning is no longer elite.  Eli Manning is no different than Freeman, he is a middle of the pack inconsistent QB. 

I am fine with Freeman as our QB unless we find an elite QB in the draft.  I have accepted that.  The excuses of not having the same coordinator and being only 22, 23, 24, 25, etc.. is old.  Freeman is middle of the pack inconsistent.  Elite QB's rarely hit free agency, and there are none in the upcoming draft.  I would rather have Freeman.

No offense, but you SHOULD expect more out of him.  He is not some stiff signed off the street. Dude was a #17 pick in the first round.  If your a GM and you miss on draft picks that high, you won't have a job for long.  I think all the excuses are played out now, its time to produce this season, or they will have to swing into plan B, whatever that might be.   I hope he takes the next step, and balls to a high level for every game in 2013.  No one wants him to succeed more than me.

Of course I want better, but he is not elite, and never will be. Every fan wants an elite QB, but there are only 3 of them in the league.   I am more concerned about winning a SB.  Elite QBs are rare was my point.  If I cannot have elite, I am fine with middle of the pack QB.  A lot of middle if the pack QBs win Super Bowls.  I am fine with Freeman at this point

Brady, Brees, Rodgers





I may have misunderstood your meaning of "elite"  and "middle of the pack".   I guess everyone has a different definition of those terms.  But you sayin there are only 3 "elite" QB's in the league explains it.

No Mannings?

Peyton's brain is still elite, but his arm is not. 

Eli is middle of the pack QB that won on two defensively strong teams.  Eli made a clutch Hail Mary durin the SB that his receiver made a terrific on the helmet catch to bail him out.  Eli would not have won two SBs on any other team.  He is way too inconsistent to be elite.  He was no different this season than past seasons, except his defense could not save him from every inconsistent performance to squeak into the playoffs like in past years. 

Freeman is no different than Eli.  Freeman has those great games, and those games that make Hate throw his remote during those away games.  If we had the Strahan defense, that Eli did we would have squeaked into the playoffs as well this year.

[Pewter Pirate]

I meant Peyton's arm is not elite now.

[1sparkybuc]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

[Pewter Pirate]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

I do support Freeman, you should read the whole post.  Objectively viewing Freeman as middle of the pack is not attacking him, it is a fact.  If you notice I only labeled 3 OBs out of 32 teams as being elite.  I do not even consider either Manning (presently) as elite.   Freeman is not the third best QB in the league.  Elite has to be proven , not given.  I hope he becomes elite, but more importantly I want a SB regardless if Freeman is elite or middle of the pack.

[BucBalla85]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

I agree. He's just really easy to blame with it all. I mean he is middle of the pack and that isn't good enough when you got crappy defense. I mean but to get better than that isnt easy. Yea it took 3 decades to get a middle of the pack QB. How long would it take to find better? I mean its so hard to hit on a QB. Aaron Rodgers got passed by so many teams because they didn't think he was good enough. Brady was skipped over multiple times. Teams are lucky to get these guys. They are lucky to get above average qbs. I mean the best thing you can do is pick the guy you think best fits your system and hope he works out. Your not guaranteed anything. I do think Freeman can improve this season and can win more games but the whole team has to improve. We know Freeman is not good enough to do it by himself. He's shown this already. But I think with a solid team beside him he would lead this team to wins over good teams. Here's a question, what if Freeman has a similar year stat wise but the team wins more games? I feel like a lot of people wouldn't be as opposed to Freeman being our QB for longer than just this next season. It's about wins in the end and if the team does that Freeman will get a lot of unnecessary credit for the wins when it's really on EVERYBODY to contribute and make the plays. Just my thoughts for now.

[Pewter Pirate]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

I agree. He's just really easy to blame with it all. I mean he is middle of the pack and that isn't good enough when you got crappy defense. I mean but to get better than that isnt easy. Yea it took 3 decades to get a middle of the pack QB. How long would it take to find better? I mean its so hard to hit on a QB. Aaron Rodgers got passed by so many teams because they didn't think he was good enough. Brady was skipped over multiple times. Teams are lucky to get these guys. They are lucky to get above average qbs. I mean the best thing you can do is pick the guy you think best fits your system and hope he works out. Your not guaranteed anything. I do think Freeman can improve this season and can win more games but the whole team has to improve. We know Freeman is not good enough to do it by himself. He's shown this already. But I think with a solid team beside him he would lead this team to wins over good teams. Here's a question, what if Freeman has a similar year stat wise but the team wins more games? I feel like a lot of people wouldn't be as opposed to Freeman being our QB for longer than just this next season. It's about wins in the end and if the team does that Freeman will get a lot of unnecessary credit for the wins when it's really on EVERYBODY to contribute and make the plays. Just my thoughts for now.

Yep

[NotDeadYet]

     Josh Freeman gets my support as long as he CONSISTANTLY maintains focus and responds appropriately to situations in practice and in games, and works HARD to continually improve. That's what an ELITE QB does! He made great strides in fitting into Sullivan's very different offense last season. Looking forward to year 2!
     'Bout the only Buc whos case I got on was Winslow the junior; couldn't stand his 'tude at all!

[1sparkybuc]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

I do support Freeman, you should read the whole post.  Objectively viewing Freeman as middle of the pack is not attacking him, it is a fact.  If you notice I only labeled 3 OBs out of 32 teams as being elite.  I do not even consider either Manning (presently) as elite.   Freeman is not the third best QB in the league.  Elite has to be proven , not given.  I hope he becomes elite, but more importantly I want a SB regardless if Freeman is elite or middle of the pack.

.

I wasn't attacking your premise. I even agree to a certain extent. Freeman will never be described as elite on this board, even if the Bucs won multiple SBs. There would always be some here who would credit everyone and everything else except Freeman for getting it done. The Bucs have always been known been an incomplete team. When they have won it's always been on the strength of their defense. That's been the history. That history is changing. As inconsistent and sporadic as they were last year they still broke franchise records for offense. They did it without a defense contributing 10 TDs and with a patchwork OL. They did it with a new playbook, new coaches, and new players, some of them backups and one a rookie RB. It wasn't perfect but it was prolific. To me it was promising for the future. The pieces are finally falling into place for the Bucs to have an offense that is feared and respected. We have NEVER had that, EVER, not even in 2002. That offense hit its' stride in the playoffs but it was still the Defense that was dominating. We didn't even need the offense to win the SB. The Defense sucked the life out of the Raiduhs and scored 3 TDs in the process. I believe the Bucs are on the verge of fielding a dominating offense. I've watched every team we have ever had. This offense is just starting to shape up, and Freeman is the key. I'm tired of watching our QBs in the playoffs with other teams, and I don't want to see Freeman winning games for Andy Reid in KC. I don't want to wait another 3 or 4 years for a new QB to develop. We have talent and ability on both sides of the line. We have youth and experience. It's certainly a great foundation to build on. Greg Schiano has already changed the culture and is quick to fix any problems before they arise. We all look forward to free agency and the draft to see what he and Dominik have in mind. Replacing Freeman is not on their list.

I believe Freeman will prove out to be at the very top of the pack just below elite. Schiano will tweak the offense and fix the defense and lead the Bucs to the playoffs next season. I'm excited for the future of this team.

[Dolorous Jason]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

Good post , Sparky .

[wilkes]

Growing up in Pennsylvania, I was raised watching the Eagles. I hate the Eagles. If you hate something you seem to have to gain knowledge about that topic. Up until the past few years I did just that. My point to this is that Josh Freeman is a Mcnabb clone.

At one point Profootball Weekly actually had Mcnabb as a top 5 player in the league. He was never a top 10 quarterback in my opinion. Never. Pinkston and Thrash were not his problem. He could never deliver the ball accurately to them on the crossing routes. He excelled on deep balls, whether they were seams or outs. He also gained a large portion of his stats on screens with an excellent OL and Westbrook. His stats were also inflated due to all of the opportunities the defense presented him with during his career. His demeanor is about the same with Josh actually being more serious and more of a leader.  Mcnabb was always just good enough to keep the Eagles competitive year after year on a much more talented team.

Perspective is what it is all about. What are the Bucs looking to do in the future? I do not know. If it were up to me, I would say that they should keep of Josh AND draft a quarterback to replace him if, as an organization, he is viewed as a franchise quarterback.

[NotDeadYet]

OK, so Freeman is a middle of the pack QB. What about the team around him? What about the coaches? Has the team been held back by his play? I guess our defense is the poster child for middle of the pack with being first against the run and last against the pass. Not much Freeman can do about that unless he play safety. Maybe Raheem and Olson were fired because they couldn't make Freeman an elite QB. 7-9 is certainly middle of the pack, and 17 interceptions probably is too, but what about 389 points scored? Is that middle of the pack?  Is 4,000 yards passing middle of the pack? Is 27 TD passes? Are our franchise records just middle of the pack in comparison to 31 other teams?

I'd really like to know. Two things I do know, Freeman didn't win 7 games all by himself, and he didn't lose 9 all by himself. He had help.

One thing I suspect, it took over 3 decades to find a true franchise QB (none of the others come close), we're not going to find another in the next 2 or 3 years.

Attacking him won't help.

Supporting him might.

I do support Freeman, you should read the whole post.  Objectively viewing Freeman as middle of the pack is not attacking him, it is a fact.  If you notice I only labeled 3 OBs out of 32 teams as being elite.  I do not even consider either Manning (presently) as elite.   Freeman is not the third best QB in the league.  Elite has to be proven , not given.  I hope he becomes elite, but more importantly I want a SB regardless if Freeman is elite or middle of the pack.

.

I wasn't attacking your premise. I even agree to a certain extent. Freeman will never be described as elite on this board, even if the Bucs won multiple SBs. There would always be some here who would credit everyone and everything else except Freeman for getting it done. The Bucs have always been known been an incomplete team. When they have won it's always been on the strength of their defense. That's been the history. That history is changing. As inconsistent and sporadic as they were last year they still broke franchise records for offense. They did it without a defense contributing 10 TDs and with a patchwork OL. They did it with a new playbook, new coaches, and new players, some of them backups and one a rookie RB. It wasn't perfect but it was prolific. To me it was promising for the future. The pieces are finally falling into place for the Bucs to have an offense that is feared and respected. We have NEVER had that, EVER, not even in 2002. That offense hit its' stride in the playoffs but it was still the Defense that was dominating. We didn't even need the offense to win the SB. The Defense sucked the life out of the Raiduhs and scored 3 TDs in the process. I believe the Bucs are on the verge of fielding a dominating offense. I've watched every team we have ever had. This offense is just starting to shape up, and Freeman is the key. I'm tired of watching our QBs in the playoffs with other teams, and I don't want to see Freeman winning games for Andy Reid in KC. I don't want to wait another 3 or 4 years for a new QB to develop. We have talent and ability on both sides of the line. We have youth and experience. It's certainly a great foundation to build on. Greg Schiano has already changed the culture and is quick to fix any problems before they arise. We all look forward to free agency and the draft to see what he and Dominik have in mind. Replacing Freeman is not on their list.

I believe Freeman will prove out to be at the very top of the pack just below elite. Schiano will tweak the offense and fix the defense and lead the Bucs to the playoffs next season. I'm excited for the future of this team.

   Good points, Sparky. TBH, back in 2002 when we went to Philly, our offense was very sporadic all season and I fully expected us to lose.  Still much better than under Dungy, but a long ways from last season's version. Good things a'comin, sir!

[NotDeadYet]

Growing up in Pennsylvania, I was raised watching the Eagles. I hate the Eagles. If you hate something you seem to have to gain knowledge about that topic. Up until the past few years I did just that. My point to this is that Josh Freeman is a Mcnabb clone.

At one point Profootball Weekly actually had Mcnabb as a top 5 player in the league. He was never a top 10 quarterback in my opinion. Never. Pinkston and Thrash were not his problem. He could never deliver the ball accurately to them on the crossing routes. He excelled on deep balls, whether they were seams or outs. He also gained a large portion of his stats on screens with an excellent OL and Westbrook. His stats were also inflated due to all of the opportunities the defense presented him with during his career. His demeanor is about the same with Josh actually being more serious and more of a leader.  Mcnabb was always just good enough to keep the Eagles competitive year after year on a much more talented team.

Perspective is what it is all about. What are the Bucs looking to do in the future? I do not know. If it were up to me, I would say that they should keep of Josh AND draft a quarterback to replace him if, as an organization, he is viewed as a franchise quarterback.

  Good comparison. I always though McNabb became a bit **CENSORED**y and maybe didn't work as hard at his craft as he should have. Hopefully Freeman won't fall into that trap; he does seem to be more coachable than McNabb.
Goin' back even further, I see similarities to Jim Plunket too. Heisman winner drafted #1 by the Patriots in '71, he didn't completely 'get it' until he went to the Raiders 7 years later, at age 31... where he won 2 Super Bowls...

[1sparkybuc]

Eleven QBs threw for over 4,000 yards this past season. Freeman was one of them. Brees was another. Both of their teams finished 7-9. The Bucs are on the rise. The Saints are past their prime and on the decline.