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VinBucFan

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#360 : February 13, 2013, 09:40:58 PM

1. As I just explained above , the bad guys are going to have all the weapons they require, regardless of what law you pass. That's what criminals do , break laws.

Not sure how that is even an argument that there are NOT too many guns. That is an argument against banning guns, but nobody has said that.

2. Your support of the 2nd amendment garantees us all a gun . That means everyone who wants to be armed is still going to be armed. I don't need an arsenal to go rob a convienent store. I need one gun. I don't need an arsenal to shoot the guy who cut me off in a road rage. I need one gun. I don't need an arsenal in order to leave a gun unattended and my child pick it up and kill himself. I need one gun . I don't need an arsenal to fire a gun up in the air on new years eve and have the bullet come down and kill someone . I need one gun.  I don't need an arsenal at home for 99% of crimes i may choose to commit.

That  ^^^^ is actually an argument that there ARE too many guns. Well done. 310 million guns for 50 million gun households.  Sure there are some collectors, but there's no reason for 7 guns per gun household (and anyone with common sense knows its not that anyway).  Maybe you did not understand the question, but thanks for the argument supporting a reduction in guns. I agree that a child is more likely to die by an unattended gun if there are seven of them in the home rather than just one.  You make a great point.


3. The argument can be made that a well armed poulace deters crime. As I said criminals are going to be armed regardless.  But , for example , let's say you are an armed rapist intent on raping a neighbor . Do you pick the neighbor who you know has an arsenal of weapons in her house and goes to the gun range twice a week , or do you pick the other girl who lives alone and has the anti-gun bumper sticker on her Prius. You are probably going to choose the path of least resistance.

I seriously doubt a rapist considers the size of one's arsenal. I think a rapist might avoid someone associated with guns on any level, but I doubt a rapist says she has 3, she has 16, I am  going after the one with 3? I don't disagree that guns serve a valid purpose in self defense. We probably differ in our views as to the need, but this argument (#3) isnt much of an argument for the NOT being too many guns. 

4. It isn't a question of "how many" . You seem to fail to understand that if we have a problem with out-of-control and pointless violence , it is a societal problem and not an inanimate object problem. It doesn't matter how many guns you take off the street unless people respect human life , respect the rule of law , and have a sense of accountability for thier own actions. If not , violence will happen even if guns dissappear completely.  You are trying to attack one of the symptoms , and not the actual disease.

Again, not really an argument for why there are NOT too many guns, but since you took the time, here's my response.  I am all for attacking the disease. I have NEVER said that one measure (reducing guns) is the sole solution to the exclusion of all others. In fact, I said the opposite.  We absolutely should address mental health, but we shouldn't do that to the exclusion of reducing guns. Just look at your premise: "we have a problem with out-of-control and pointless violence" Taking that premise as SPOT ON why would we want our society to be an EASY society to get a gun and even worse and EASY society to get assault rifles?  You are actually (once again) making my point for me.  If the US does actually "have a problem with out-of-control and pointless violence" then the last thing we should want is A LOT of guns hanging around. Newtown is the perfect example.  The are a lot of Lanzas in this country.  They all need help and we should spend big money helping them, but while we do, we should be making it tougher for them to get guns NOT easier. For goodness sake, if it was not so ridiculously easy for Lanza's mother to get an AR there's no way he kills that many kids


OBVIOUSLY WE DISAGREE ON A LOT, BUT I APPRECIATE THE DISCUSSION NONTHELESS
: February 13, 2013, 09:42:45 PM VinBucFan

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#361 : February 13, 2013, 10:12:15 PM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

VinBucFan

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#362 : February 13, 2013, 10:28:25 PM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

VinBucFan

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#363 : February 13, 2013, 10:34:48 PM

why are gun owners/advocates so terrified by the "slippery slope" that they refuse any measure, no matter how obviously needed or  how reasonable?  I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a single pro-gun poster on any of these threads offering some reasonable restriction on guns. There are 310 million guns for only 50 million gun households and some 30,000 gun deaths per year and a growing number of horrific mass murders . . . and yet there's NOTHING we should do about guns?  NOTHING?

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

dbucfan

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#364 : February 13, 2013, 10:41:23 PM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.
If the problem is indeed cultural decay let's take a run at correcting the problem? 

And then one can possibly meld the idea of one being responsible for their actions and their guns into such an endeavor.  just thinking out loud

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

VinBucFan

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#365 : February 13, 2013, 10:46:42 PM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.
If the problem is indeed cultural decay let's take a run at correcting the problem? 

And then one can possibly meld the idea of one being responsible for their actions and their guns into such an endeavor.  just thinking out loud


agree with all of that, but to the exclusion of any other measure? that doesn't make sense to me.

The real problem of drunk driving is an irresponsible attitude toward drinking . .  so stop all anti-drunk driving educational programs, stop the criminal sanctions,  no longer require a license to drive, give drunk drivers and bars immunity against suit . . . because let's take a run at correcting the irresponsible attitude toward drinking.

That approach sounds absurd to me.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

Dolorous Jason

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#366 : February 14, 2013, 07:24:07 AM

why are gun owners/advocates so terrified by the "slippery slope"


Hmmmmm, I have no idea why that could be....


Assault rifles are an easy starting point

There are way too many handguns.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#367 : February 14, 2013, 07:37:14 AM

1. As I just explained above , the bad guys are going to have all the weapons they require, regardless of what law you pass. That's what criminals do , break laws.

Not sure how that is even an argument that there are NOT too many guns. That is an argument against banning guns, but nobody has said that.


Take it in the entire context of our argument and you will understand.

You admitted we need guns, and we need them for self defense  , thereby conceding that you can't simply use regulation and new laws alone in order to make yourself safe from gun criminals.( If we could then a total ban would be the perfect solution ) Your plan of "less guns" doesn't really do much of anything to deter crime. The only people with "less guns" will be law abiding citizens , and as I said , you only need 1 gun to commit a crime regardless.


You knew you were getting backed into a corner on this , which is why it was like pulling teeth to get you to admit THE REASON you support the 2nd amendment. Stop playing dumb.
: February 14, 2013, 07:54:01 AM Fire Mark Dummynik

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

dbucfan

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#368 : February 14, 2013, 08:51:16 AM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.
If the problem is indeed cultural decay let's take a run at correcting the problem? 

And then one can possibly meld the idea of one being responsible for their actions and their guns into such an endeavor.  just thinking out loud


agree with all of that, but to the exclusion of any other measure? that doesn't make sense to me.

The real problem of drunk driving is an irresponsible attitude toward drinking . .  so stop all anti-drunk driving educational programs, stop the criminal sanctions,  no longer require a license to drive, give drunk drivers and bars immunity against suit . . . because let's take a run at correcting the irresponsible attitude toward drinking.

That approach sounds absurd to me.
I did not use the word exclusionary, and did note other 'measures' would be involved. 

The drinking and driving issue has been successfully addressed - not completely eliminated - but folks values have been altered to include the knowledge of the behavior.  This would be what is acceptable, what isn't and how misbehavior will be treated.  Has drinking and driving been eliminated no, is the problem greatly improved - I would offer yes.

So ignoring what has worked for other such problems might be the absurd manner of addressing issues.  just thinking

and here is just one article reporting improvement due to efforts...

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

VinBucFan

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#369 : February 14, 2013, 08:58:24 AM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.
If the problem is indeed cultural decay let's take a run at correcting the problem? 

And then one can possibly meld the idea of one being responsible for their actions and their guns into such an endeavor.  just thinking out loud


agree with all of that, but to the exclusion of any other measure? that doesn't make sense to me.

The real problem of drunk driving is an irresponsible attitude toward drinking . .  so stop all anti-drunk driving educational programs, stop the criminal sanctions,  no longer require a license to drive, give drunk drivers and bars immunity against suit . . . because let's take a run at correcting the irresponsible attitude toward drinking.

That approach sounds absurd to me.
I did not use the word exclusionary, and did note other 'measures' would be involved. 

The drinking and driving issue has been successfully addressed - not completely eliminated - but folks values have been altered to include the knowledge of the behavior.  This would be what is acceptable, what isn't and how misbehavior will be treated.  Has drinking and driving been eliminated no, is the problem greatly improved - I would offer yes.

So ignoring what has worked for other such problems might be the absurd manner of addressing issues.  just thinking

and here is just one article reporting improvement due to efforts...

We must just be misunderstanding each other because I thought you meant work on "cultural decay" to the exclusion of reducing guns and you seem to think I am saying the opposite when I am not.  I am 1000% behind working on mental health issues/cultural decay. Now, while we work on the decades-long solution (if ever) for cultural decay we might want to do something about the mixture of cultural decay and guns that is clipping along at about 300,000 deaths a decade. Lots of lives lost while waiting for our efforts to pay off.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

VinBucFan

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#370 : February 14, 2013, 09:06:05 AM

1. As I just explained above , the bad guys are going to have all the weapons they require, regardless of what law you pass. That's what criminals do , break laws.

Not sure how that is even an argument that there are NOT too many guns. That is an argument against banning guns, but nobody has said that.


Take it in the entire context of our argument and you will understand.

You admitted we need guns, and we need them for self defense  , thereby conceding that you can't simply use regulation and new laws alone in order to make yourself safe from gun criminals.( If we could then a total ban would be the perfect solution ) Your plan of "less guns" doesn't really do much of anything to deter crime. The only people with "less guns" will be law abiding citizens , and as I said , you only need 1 gun to commit a crime regardless.


You knew you were getting backed into a corner on this , which is why it was like pulling teeth to get you to admit THE REASON you support the 2nd amendment. Stop playing dumb.

Its not that its that you keep restating everything in your own terms.  I say that I recognize funs serve a valid purpose for self-defense (I think I even went on to say we can debate the "need" -) You turn that into this: "You admitted we need guns, and we need them for self defense  , thereby conceding that you can't simply use regulation and new laws alone in order to make yourself safe from gun criminals"

LOL -- not only did I not say the first part, I have never said this:  "conceding that you can't simply use regulation and new laws alone in order to make yourself safe from gun criminals"  It's like you are arguing against phantoms instead of me.

I am all for doing many things to deter crime and its simply not true that reducing guns means that "the only people with "less guns" will be law abiding citizens. There are 310 million guns but only 50 million "law abiding citizens" LOL  That's a ton of guns that get lost, stolen, used in crimes of passion and that kill innocent people in accidents.


Seriously, try not restating everything I post in your own terms, especially because you restate everything in an extreme.  My position is way more middle ground than you keep portraying it.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

VinBucFan

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#371 : February 14, 2013, 09:08:25 AM

why are gun owners/advocates so terrified by the "slippery slope"


Hmmmmm, I have no idea why that could be....


Assault rifles are an easy starting point

There are way too many handguns.

You actually illustrate the point I just made. Wanting to ban assault rifles and saying there are simply too many guns (when there are 310 million -lol) does not translate into "TAKE ALL THEIR GUNS" --- no matter how many times you restate it as that. lmao.


Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

dbucfan

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#372 : February 14, 2013, 09:30:15 AM

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-on-the-right/021213-644195-cultural-decay-not-guns-is-the-real-problem.htm?p=2

Isn't this the real issue/disease?

who knows, but assume it is.  If "cultural decay" is the real issue why would we want there to be millions of unnecessary guns around? We should be trying to make it tougher for lunatics (the "culturally decayed") to get guns NOT easier, right?

Besides that, why do we have to apply ONLY a perfect solution? For example, the "real problem" with much of child education in this country is poor parenting, but that doesn't mean we don't do every reasonable thing we can to teach kids nor does it mean that we do nothing other than try to improve parenting. We don't implement ONLY a perfect solution and, worse yet,  to the exclusion of all other things that help deal with the problem.  Same concept with guns. If the "real problem" is "cultural decay" that doesn't mean we do NOTHING about guns while we work really hard on "cultural decay."

I dont get the argument that says "do nothing about guns" unless it is a SINGULAR PERFECT SOLUTION.  We don't take that approach with any other social ill.
If the problem is indeed cultural decay let's take a run at correcting the problem? 

And then one can possibly meld the idea of one being responsible for their actions and their guns into such an endeavor.  just thinking out loud


agree with all of that, but to the exclusion of any other measure? that doesn't make sense to me.

The real problem of drunk driving is an irresponsible attitude toward drinking . .  so stop all anti-drunk driving educational programs, stop the criminal sanctions,  no longer require a license to drive, give drunk drivers and bars immunity against suit . . . because let's take a run at correcting the irresponsible attitude toward drinking.

That approach sounds absurd to me.
I did not use the word exclusionary, and did note other 'measures' would be involved. 

The drinking and driving issue has been successfully addressed - not completely eliminated - but folks values have been altered to include the knowledge of the behavior.  This would be what is acceptable, what isn't and how misbehavior will be treated.  Has drinking and driving been eliminated no, is the problem greatly improved - I would offer yes.

So ignoring what has worked for other such problems might be the absurd manner of addressing issues.  just thinking

and here is just one article reporting improvement due to efforts...

We must just be misunderstanding each other because I thought you meant work on "cultural decay" to the exclusion of reducing guns and you seem to think I am saying the opposite when I am not.  I am 1000% behind working on mental health issues/cultural decay. Now, while we work on the decades-long solution (if ever) for cultural decay we might want to do something about the mixture of cultural decay and guns that is clipping along at about 300,000 deaths a decade. Lots of lives lost while waiting for our efforts to pay off.
Nope - it is all running together to me - the decline of the family unit right through the misuse of guns - all related and all need to be addressed.  Check out Dr. Benjamin Carson... he's on it. http://video.foxnews.com/v/2152105947001/dr-benjamin-carsons-speech-at-prayer-breakfast/
: February 14, 2013, 09:31:58 AM dbucfan

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#373 : February 14, 2013, 12:39:48 PM

Thanks D

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

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#374 : February 14, 2013, 03:18:38 PM

and what we currently have Vince - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/nobody_wake_barack_mIetWRbcrPXyEE9QI7jYEM#ixzz2Kb5PUTrT as opposed to Carson make my stomach turn

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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