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chace1986

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#180 : February 20, 2013, 09:18:48 AM

Get a clue, TBT, and take a course in college ethics... ::)

Wow. The stupidity is palpable.


McBarron

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#181 : February 20, 2013, 09:20:56 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed,

You clearly have never took a college ethics class.  People that think like you are scary.  It was legal in some places to perform genocide.  That doesn't make the law just.

You must be a Criminology major as well.

In fact, anybody that majored in Criminology knows that all laws need to be constantly questioned. Hence, case laws and what not.

I like the genocide example......good point.


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#182 : February 20, 2013, 09:24:17 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed, ignorance is no defence.
They are out there for all to see & it's not like he was trying to carry on a bottle of Pepsi, it was a gun and ammo, it's his reponsibility to make sure he's following the letter of the law.
If he simply "forgot" he had it that's just as bad if not worse IMO, one of the main rules for gun ownership is knowing where your weapon is and storing it safely, if he "forgets" where his guns are that implies he isn't a responsible owner. and shouldn't have a gun at all.
It's not like misplacing your housekeys, this is a weapon.

While I agree with you for the most part, I still cannot bring myself to believe that DQB committed a CRIME.

CRIME: an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state

We have overpopulated jails as it is. Let's reserve jail ONLY for people who cause harm (rather intentionally or not, directly or indirectly) to others.

It seems that it is almost easier to end up in a cell than not these days. I'm okay with them charging him since statutorily he committed an offense. But, if the DA does anything but throw this out, it will be a complete joke and a travesty. To attempt to convict would be nothing more than a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Dude realized his stupidity and was forthcoming. He owned the gun legally. He had zero ill intent. So, why would we throw him in jail?

While I agree with every word of your post, intent is not built into this law. If you legally own a gun and walking into a 7/11 without showing it, no one is going to accuse you of armed robbery, no intent. That is not the case in the burroughs of NY. It's stated very clearly, you are in direct violation of the law if you have a handgun on your person without the proper permit which is specific to those 5 burroughs ONLY. He meant no harm and had no intention of doing anything wrong. Regardless he did commit the crime of having a gun without proper permit.

I would assume he is no longer a part of this team until otherwise noted.

So, he violated the law. I agree with you. Given the circumstances, fine the shlt out of him, but to incarcarate him would be a joke. I cannot and will not back off of that.


McBarron

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#183 : February 20, 2013, 09:29:51 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed,

You clearly have never took a college ethics class.  People that think like you are scary.  It was legal in some places to perform genocide.  That doesn't make the law just.
Really, you are going to compare this to genocide?
As I said and you quoted, I don't agree with the law BUT if something is the law you have to expect to be punished if you don't follow it.
If this wasn't the case what is the purpose of having laws, we might as well just let individuals decide what is right and wrong.
I guess the world should be all...
"I don't recognise you laws regarding murder."
"Ok, in that case you're free to go and don't forget to collect your semi automatic you used to gun down 15 people, have a nice day."

He wasn't comparing this to genocide. He used it as an example that all laws at one time or another need to be placed under a microscope and either be modified or even revoked. This is very well one of them. This is one that should be examined very carefully because to imprison someone for their stupidity AFTER they volunteered the info w/o any provocation is UNJUST. Pure and simple.

I don't mind this law so long as each violation is examined carefully by the DA before pursuing prosecution.


TBTrojan

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#184 : February 20, 2013, 09:29:54 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed, ignorance is no defence.
They are out there for all to see & it's not like he was trying to carry on a bottle of Pepsi, it was a gun and ammo, it's his reponsibility to make sure he's following the letter of the law.
If he simply "forgot" he had it that's just as bad if not worse IMO, one of the main rules for gun ownership is knowing where your weapon is and storing it safely, if he "forgets" where his guns are that implies he isn't a responsible owner. and shouldn't have a gun at all.
It's not like misplacing your housekeys, this is a weapon.

While I agree with you for the most part, I still cannot bring myself to believe that DQB committed a CRIME.

CRIME: an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state

We have overpopulated jails as it is. Let's reserve jail ONLY for people who cause harm (rather intentionally or not, directly or indirectly) to others.

It seems that it is almost easier to end up in a cell than not these days. I'm okay with them charging him since statutorily he committed an offense. But, if the DA does anything but throw this out, it will be a complete joke and a travesty. To attempt to convict would be nothing more than a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Dude realized his stupidity and was forthcoming. He owned the gun legally. He had zero ill intent. So, why would we throw him in jail?
CRIME: an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law.
CRIME: an action or omission which constitutes an offence and is punishable by law.

There are 2 totally separate points to this...
#1 Should it be a crime?
This is debatable.
# Was it a crime?
This isn't debatable, there was a law an he broke it, therefore it was a crime. Just because somebody didn't mean to kill somebody else with their car doesn't mean there was no crime.

One of the biggest problems in today's world is lack personal responsibility and accountability, sure it's lame he's in this position due to a dumb law but he put himself in that position, it's not like the rules are super double secret.

TBTrojan

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#185 : February 20, 2013, 09:35:52 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed,

You clearly have never took a college ethics class.  People that think like you are scary.  It was legal in some places to perform genocide.  That doesn't make the law just.
Really, you are going to compare this to genocide?
As I said and you quoted, I don't agree with the law BUT if something is the law you have to expect to be punished if you don't follow it.
If this wasn't the case what is the purpose of having laws, we might as well just let individuals decide what is right and wrong.
I guess the world should be all...
"I don't recognise you laws regarding murder."
"Ok, in that case you're free to go and don't forget to collect your semi automatic you used to gun down 15 people, have a nice day."

You stated "a law is a law and has to be followed".  The point was not every law should be followed.  There are laws that are just and unjust.  Bowers is looking at 3.5 years minimum in prison if he gets the wrong DA, all because he did the right thing.

That makes a law unjust.  Unjust laws should not blindly be followed.  There should be a demand and a protest for common sense.
Ok, who decides what laws are & aren't just, get them to change it.
Until that's done this is a law that by definition has to be followed no matter a persons own set of beliefs.

I've said many times this is dumb but that doesn't alter the facts that he broke the law.

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#186 : February 20, 2013, 09:36:07 AM

CRIME: an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law.
CRIME: an action or omission which constitutes an offence and is punishable by law.

There are 2 totally separate points to this...
#1 Should it be a crime?
This is debatable.
# Was it a crime?
This isn't debatable, there was a law an he broke it, therefore it was a crime. Just because somebody didn't mean to kill somebody else with their car doesn't mean there was no crime.

One of the biggest problems in today's world is lack personal responsibility and accountability, sure it's lame he's in this position due to a dumb law but he put himself in that position, it's not like the rules are super double secret.

Let's make this all a bit simpler: Do you feel that DQB receiving a jail sentence for this offense is JUST?


McBarron

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#187 : February 20, 2013, 09:37:45 AM

Ok, who decides what laws are & aren't just, get them to change it.
Until that's done this is a law that by definition has to be followed no matter a persons own set of beliefs.

I've said many times this is dumb but that doesn't alter the facts that he broke the law.

It's terrible that there is no clause in this law for amnesty.


acacius

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#188 : February 20, 2013, 09:38:19 AM

So, he violated the law. I agree with you. Given the circumstances, fine the shlt out of him, but to incarcarate him would be a joke. I cannot and will not back off of that.
I mean, based on everything I've read, it sounds like once he realized what he'd done, he reacted exactly how you'd want someone to.  Even putting aside a man's life being ruined for one mistake, even putting aside the cost to the state the jail time would represent, you still have the idea that I would think you'd want to *encourage* people to react like Bowers did.  Throwing the book at him only encourages people to try to hide things when they mess up.

TBTrojan

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#189 : February 20, 2013, 09:38:53 AM

Get a clue, TBT, and take a course in college ethics... ::)

Wow. The stupidity is palpable.
Wow the guy that can't argue the point and instead resorts to immature name calling is daring to call others stupid, what a shocker.

McBarron

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#190 : February 20, 2013, 09:40:58 AM

So, he violated the law. I agree with you. Given the circumstances, fine the shlt out of him, but to incarcarate him would be a joke. I cannot and will not back off of that.
I mean, based on everything I've read, it sounds like once he realized what he'd done, he reacted exactly how you'd want someone to.  Even putting aside a man's life being ruined for one mistake, even putting aside the cost to the state the jail time would represent, you still have the idea that I would think you'd want to *encourage* people to react like Bowers did.  Throwing the book at him only encourages people to try to hide things when they mess up.

Exactamundo!


TBTrojan

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#191 : February 20, 2013, 09:43:24 AM

As much as I don't agree with the law and I like Bowers, a law is a law and has to be followed,

You clearly have never took a college ethics class.  People that think like you are scary.  It was legal in some places to perform genocide.  That doesn't make the law just.
Really, you are going to compare this to genocide?
As I said and you quoted, I don't agree with the law BUT if something is the law you have to expect to be punished if you don't follow it.
If this wasn't the case what is the purpose of having laws, we might as well just let individuals decide what is right and wrong.
I guess the world should be all...
"I don't recognise you laws regarding murder."
"Ok, in that case you're free to go and don't forget to collect your semi automatic you used to gun down 15 people, have a nice day."

He wasn't comparing this to genocide. He used it as an example that all laws at one time or another need to be placed under a microscope and either be modified or even revoked. This is very well one of them. This is one that should be examined very carefully because to imprison someone for their stupidity AFTER they volunteered the info w/o any provocation is UNJUST. Pure and simple.

I don't mind this law so long as each violation is examined carefully by the DA before pursuing prosecution.
That's fine, change the law, it is a dumb law that need changing but that doesn;t change the fact he broke what is at this time considered law.
If somebody gets pulled over and ticketed for doing 40 in 30 zone that ticket isn't wiped out just because the speed limit gets increased at a later date because at the time it was considered an offense.

TBTrojan

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#192 : February 20, 2013, 09:49:51 AM

CRIME: an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law.
CRIME: an action or omission which constitutes an offence and is punishable by law.

There are 2 totally separate points to this...
#1 Should it be a crime?
This is debatable.
# Was it a crime?
This isn't debatable, there was a law an he broke it, therefore it was a crime. Just because somebody didn't mean to kill somebody else with their car doesn't mean there was no crime.

One of the biggest problems in today's world is lack personal responsibility and accountability, sure it's lame he's in this position due to a dumb law but he put himself in that position, it's not like the rules are super double secret.

Let's make this all a bit simpler: Do you feel that DQB receiving a jail sentence for this offense is JUST?
That doesn't make it simpler at all, the answer to that falls into #1, I don't think it should be a crime but then there are many other things I don't feel should be a crime but they are.
There is a reason you have to commit based on fact not feeling, fact is he broke a law and anyone that breaks a law intentionally or not should be punished for that until the time comes that the law is changed.

acacius

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#193 : February 20, 2013, 09:51:30 AM

Meh, there's flexibility in how the DA prosecutes it.  I see nothing wrong with common-sense plea bargaining.  The laws should serve the community, not vice versa.

chace1986

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#194 : February 20, 2013, 09:59:23 AM

Get a clue, TBT, and take a course in college ethics... ::)

Wow. The stupidity is palpable.
Wow the guy that can't argue the point and instead resorts to immature name calling is daring to call others stupid, what a shocker.

I don't know if you caught my sarcasm or saw my previous post that said I agree with you. I was defending you and referring to the point about the "genocide" as stupidity.
: February 20, 2013, 10:02:03 AM chace1986

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