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VinBucFan

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: April 13, 2013, 01:02:52 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324050304578412932073225110?mg=reno64-wsj.html?dsk=y

"Well, be careful how much you save.That's the message in President Obama's budget for fiscal 2014, which for the first time proposes to cap the amount Americans can save in these tax-sheltered investment vehicles. The White House explanation is that some people have accumulated "substantially more than is needed to fund reasonable levels of retirement saving." So Mr. Obama proposes to "limit an individual's total balance across tax-preferred accounts to an amount sufficient to finance an annuity of not more than $205,000 per year in retirement, or about $3 million for someone retiring in 2013."


Have to love this little ding:

"Best-selling books used to celebrate these "millionaires next door" who worked and saved their way to financial independence. But now Mr. Obama wants to treat them as if they all got rich by sheltering investments in the Cayman Islands or extracting bonuses from bailed-out banks or scooping up sweetheart mortgage deals from allegedly nonprofit universities. Someone should tell the President that most Americans can't swing the bonuses that his Treasury Secretary Jack Lew arranged at NYU and Citigroup"[/b]
: April 13, 2013, 01:04:35 PM VinBucFan

VinBucFan

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#1 : April 13, 2013, 01:07:00 PM

and this one:

"Amazingly, Mr. Obama has surveyed the economic landscape and somehow decided that it's time to discourage savings if you make more than he thinks is 'reasonable.'"

spartan

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#2 : April 13, 2013, 06:49:24 PM

and this one:

"Amazingly, Mr. Obama has surveyed the economic landscape and somehow decided that it's time to discourage savings if you make more than he thinks is 'reasonable.'"

Like he thought Mitt Romney was paying an unreasonable amount of tax at 15%, then proceeded to pay a whopping 18% himself. Excuse me if I don't fall for the Presidents righteousness.

Edit: From a purely practical perspective did anyone actually think this through? Let's just say I have $3 million 10 years before I retire, which, if you max your 401K from day one  is not that tough to do. I cannot contribute to my retirement, in fact, if it makes money I have to take it out and pay the penalties.Now 1 month before I retire the stock market crashes and I am now down to $1-2 million. Is the Govt going to reimburse me all those taxes and top up my losses? After all, I could have ridden it out, taken a beating but still be in a reaonably good shape if the Govt hadn't stopped me by the threat of force to stop saving.
: April 13, 2013, 07:17:31 PM spartan

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#3 : April 13, 2013, 07:19:48 PM

and this one:

"Amazingly, Mr. Obama has surveyed the economic landscape and somehow decided that it's time to discourage savings if you make more than he thinks is 'reasonable.'"

He already decided what he thinks is reaonable to earn, I mean at he said that at some point you have earned enough didn't he? So Why does this comes as a surprise. Next down the pipeline is what is "reasonable" to own.

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#4 : April 15, 2013, 05:58:14 PM

and this one:

"Amazingly, Mr. Obama has surveyed the economic landscape and somehow decided that it's time to discourage savings if you make more than he thinks is 'reasonable.'"

He already decided what he thinks is reaonable to earn, I mean at he said that at some point you have earned enough didn't he? So Why does this comes as a surprise. Next down the pipeline is what is "reasonable" to own.

Well, the government hs already declared it can tell you what to buy, so that's not "next down the pipeline", it's already begun.

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#5 : April 16, 2013, 02:58:09 PM

I don't care if your a dem or repub, a lib or a conservative, right or left wing, this is crazy. This is absolutely nuts. I've been saying since the recession it is a bad thing for Americans to save money. Our economy depends on us spending our money on extras rather than saving it. Now the prez is going to actually start taking some of it if you don't spend it?

I just can't believe it's true.

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#6 : April 16, 2013, 06:07:39 PM

I don't care if your a dem or repub, a lib or a conservative, right or left wing, this is crazy. This is absolutely nuts. I've been saying since the recession it is a bad thing for Americans to save money. Our economy depends on us spending our money on extras rather than saving it. Now the prez is going to actually start taking some of it if you don't spend it?

I just can't believe it's true.

It's funny that some people honestly believe that.

John Galt?

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#7 : April 17, 2013, 11:39:05 AM

Saving money is a terrible thing for the US. The last thing this country needs is a bunch of people that have saved enough that they feel they are somehow "financially independent" and don't need the Glorious Fatherland to furnish their needs.

In order for this country to be strong everyone, every man women and child must be thoroughly dependent on the Glorious Fatherland to provide for them. Dependence fosters loyalty and loyalty fosters strength and we want our country strong, don't we? Independence fosters opposition and rebellion and that weakens our country. In these hard times we must not allow our country to be further weakened so we must eliminate Independence and any thought or feeling of Independence. It is in all our best interests.


VinBucFan

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#8 : April 17, 2013, 11:50:45 AM

Saving money is a terrible thing for the US. The last thing this country needs is a bunch of people that have saved enough that they feel they are somehow "financially independent" and don't need the Glorious Fatherland to furnish their needs.

In order for this country to be strong everyone, every man women and child must be thoroughly dependent on the Glorious Fatherland to provide for them. Dependence fosters loyalty and loyalty fosters strength and we want our country strong, don't we? Independence fosters opposition and rebellion and that weakens our country. In these hard times we must not allow our country to be further weakened so we must eliminate Independence and any thought or feeling of Independence. It is in all our best interests.

lol  - well done sir

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#9 : April 17, 2013, 03:57:28 PM

I don't care if your a dem or repub, a lib or a conservative, right or left wing, this is crazy. This is absolutely nuts. I've been saying since the recession it is a bad thing for Americans to save money. Our economy depends on us spending our money on extras rather than saving it. Now the prez is going to actually start taking some of it if you don't spend it?

I just can't believe it's true.

It's funny that some people honestly believe that.

When consumer spending goes down, so does the economy. We can argue all you want about the details but this economy is built on spending.

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#10 : April 17, 2013, 11:47:01 PM

Consumer spending isn't the major driver...business spending is. Business spending is created by investment which requires savings. C

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/consumer-spending-drives-the-economy#axzz2QmbCuf8l

Consumer spending is often based (by op-ed writers in the NYT for example) on "personal consumption expenditures" but PCE doesn't mean what it sounds like it means so while PCE is 70% of the economy but in reality that figure that is driven by what you and I call consumer spending is less than 40%.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

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#11 : April 18, 2013, 01:44:13 PM

Dal is quite correct. It has to do not with "how much" is spent but "where it is spent"

To put it very simply, the economic multiplier is a measure of how many people benefit from a particular purchase. The economic multiplier for various purchases varies greatly from product to product. Gas/fuel has a low multiplier because the local stations have very low profit margins on gas and the bulk of the money spent goes to crude oil which is still mostly imported (so it benefits Saudis not Americans). A new car has a high multiplier because the dealership (and its employees) benefit, the manufacturer benefits, the suppliers of parts to the manufacturer benefits, the suppliers of raw materials (steel, plastics, coal, paint, IC chips, copper) all benefit, and all those involved in shipping all that benefit.

Lets say average consumer spends ~$3000/mo. (not including taxes)

$1000 of that is on housing rent or mortgage pmts. The economic impact of that all happened when the house/apt was built.
$500 on utilities- like housing this money is getting spent regardless and the impact is negligible.
$500 on transportation. This is ONLY an impact IF the consumer bought a NEW car that yr. So 80% of it is not impactful.
$500 for food. Again this is spent no matter what. The economic multiplier for food is very low since the demand is very inelastic and supply is very fixed (a farmer can't grow 2x as much food cause he only has so much land .
$300 for entertainment. Entertainment has a very low multiplier. whether 10,000 people watch a movie or 10 million do, the same amount of $$ was spent to make the movie. Same with songs, TV, etc.
$200 is spent on clothes or devices (smart phones) not much impact since most clothing and small electronics are imported.

Now lets look at a business that spends $30,000/mo (not including taxes/fees)

$5000 on space/lease/property
$1500 on utilities
$2000 on transportation/shipping. Unlike consumers a lot of this is spent on FedEx/UPS or private truckers. And commercial cos. replace their vehicles far more often than consumers.
$8,000 on COGS/raw materials. If it is a retail co. they buy from distributors/manufactures that employ thousands, if it is value added they are buying from multiple suppliers. Large multiplier
$10,000 on payroll. Well thats just PURE eco. benefit.
$1500 on office supplies. Fairly large multiplier since most of this stuff is manufactured domestically.
$2000 on new equipment. While most consumer goods are imported, most commercial tools and equipment is "Made in the USA" like ovens, Knives, hammers, forklifts, meatslicers, etc.


To look at it another way:

Consumer spends $800 on a new HDTV- 20% goes to the retailer, 15% goes to shipping and distributors. Maybe 3% to domestic ad/marketing companies. The rest goes to Korea/Taiwan/China/etc. where all the raw materials and manufacturing equipment is located and bought.

Business spends $800 on a new Hobart meat slicer. 20% goes to Hobart distributor (usually local), 15% goes to shipping. Maybe 2% to marketing. The rest goes to Hobart Corp in Troy, Oh where they spend on employees, office supplies, raw materials, metal working equipment, forklifts, fuel, electric motors (Westinghouse), paint, plastics, etc. etc. etc.


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#12 : April 18, 2013, 01:48:43 PM

Also, the more consumers save, the more money in the bank, therefore the more money banks have to loan and most loans are commercial. Businesses with more access to capital will spend it on new locations (now hiring), new equipment, more marketing, etc.


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#13 : April 18, 2013, 02:04:46 PM

Also, the more consumers save, the more money in the bank, therefore the more money banks have to loan and most loans are commercial. Businesses with more access to capital will spend it on new locations (now hiring), new equipment, more marketing, etc.

...the other advantage of saving is that it drives interest rates down (more money to lend = more supply and as supply rises price falls) but since this administration has driven interest rates into the ground they have effectively limited one of the advantages of saving. The terrifying thing is to ponder what happens when interest rates start to rise and how nuts inflation goes,.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

VinBucFan

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#14 : April 18, 2013, 03:27:06 PM

Also, the more consumers save, the more money in the bank, therefore the more money banks have to loan and most loans are commercial. Businesses with more access to capital will spend it on new locations (now hiring), new equipment, more marketing, etc.

...the other advantage of saving is that it drives interest rates down (more money to lend = more supply and as supply rises price falls) but since this administration has driven interest rates into the ground they have effectively limited one of the advantages of saving. The terrifying thing is to ponder what happens when interest rates start to rise and how nuts inflation goes,.

yup
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