Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Where would you rank Vincent Jackson, among the best WR's in the league ? « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 5

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 12975
Online
#30 : May 23, 2013, 02:41:17 PM

Colston's team has been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one. He's good but his numbers are a product of the system. Vincent Jackson is better.

Colston caught 64.4% of the passes thrown his way over the course of his career, Jackson 54.7%.

Drew Brees might just be the most accurate QB in the league. I, personally, would argue that none are more accurate than birthmark face.

Keep reaching... Must be hard to admit that Tampa has a better player than another team or to admit that you were wrong but I'll continue to be entertained by the useless stats you throw out there to prove your point.

Hey, I can give you about 20 WR's that Jackson is better than, guys like DeSean Jackson, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, and Wes Welker... just that Colston isn't one of them.  It must be hard for you to not have any information what-so-ever to back up your claim other than homerism and hatred (towards the Saints).

I think that some do undervalue/underrate Colston like they do Roddy White...I personally would say that Colston is a top 15 WR. A lot of people here wouldn't have him that high. Just basing it statistically, Colston definitely has the edge...but stats don't tell the whole story. If we just based it off of statistical production, then Wes Welker would be in the top 3. They both are good WRs, but IMO, Jackson has the advantage because he can do everything that Colston can...and then some. If you replaced Colston with VJax over the last 5 years, I feel that the #s would be outrageously higher than Colston's.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#31 : May 23, 2013, 02:43:55 PM

Keep reaching... Must be hard to admit that Tampa has a better player than another team or to admit that you were wrong but I'll continue to be entertained by the useless stats you throw out there to prove your point.

Hey, I can give you about 20 WR's that Jackson is better than, guys like DeSean Jackson, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, and Wes Welker... just that Colston isn't one of them.  It must be hard for you to not have any information what-so-ever to back up your claim other than homerism and hatred (towards the Saints).
Not sure if serious

What's your top 10 then?

My list isn't too much different than Chace's.  I would have Thomas in there at all.  I'd move Marshall up to 6, Dez to 7, Colston in at 8, then Cruz then Jackson.

Feel Real Good

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 26746
Offline
#32 : May 23, 2013, 02:46:12 PM

Colston's team has been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one. He's good but his numbers are a product of the system. Vincent Jackson is better.

Colston caught 64.4% of the passes thrown his way over the course of his career, Jackson 54.7%.
Wouldn't that imply that his quarterback is more accurate with finding him?
More so that Colston's QB throws him shorter, easier timing passes while Jackson specializes in more difficult catches down the field.

That's not because Colston is a better route runner?  That's not because Colston doesn't need to solely rely on one asset (speed), to get open?  Look, I'm not saying the gap is light years, it's small... but there is a gap and Colston is on the plus side.  So what, Colston is slightly better than Jackson.  It's not the end of the world and it doesn't mean Jackson stinks.
Maybe he is maybe he isn't a better route runner, but at Randy Moss' prime there were probably 50 receivers in the NFL who were better route runners. Being a better route runner doesn't make one a better receiver.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#33 : May 23, 2013, 02:51:26 PM

Colston's team has been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one. He's good but his numbers are a product of the system. Vincent Jackson is better.

Colston caught 64.4% of the passes thrown his way over the course of his career, Jackson 54.7%.

Drew Brees might just be the most accurate QB in the league. I, personally, would argue that none are more accurate than birthmark face.

Keep reaching... Must be hard to admit that Tampa has a better player than another team or to admit that you were wrong but I'll continue to be entertained by the useless stats you throw out there to prove your point.

Hey, I can give you about 20 WR's that Jackson is better than, guys like DeSean Jackson, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, and Wes Welker... just that Colston isn't one of them.  It must be hard for you to not have any information what-so-ever to back up your claim other than homerism and hatred (towards the Saints).

I think that some do undervalue/underrate Colston like they do Roddy White...I personally would say that Colston is a top 15 WR. A lot of people here wouldn't have him that high. Just basing it statistically, Colston definitely has the edge...but stats don't tell the whole story. If we just based it off of statistical production, then Wes Welker would be in the top 3. They both are good WRs, but IMO, Jackson has the advantage because he can do everything that Colston can...and then some. If you replaced Colston with VJax over the last 5 years, I feel that the #s would be outrageously higher than Colston's.

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 12975
Online
#34 : May 23, 2013, 03:00:17 PM

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

No, not really. Freeman and Rivers are about on the same level of accuracy, while Brees is in a class much higher than those two. It's definitely not the same, IMO.

Also, Jackson had a career year because he was the vocal point of the offense and was targeted 147 times in 2012. In his 3 most targeted years in SD, Jackson was targeted 100('08), 107('09), and 115('11) times. From 2011 to 2012, Jackson saw a 21.76% increase in targets. That is why his numbers were greater....and most of those targets were not "the long ball".


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#35 : May 23, 2013, 03:01:00 PM

Colston's team has been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one. He's good but his numbers are a product of the system. Vincent Jackson is better.

Colston caught 64.4% of the passes thrown his way over the course of his career, Jackson 54.7%.
Wouldn't that imply that his quarterback is more accurate with finding him?
More so that Colston's QB throws him shorter, easier timing passes while Jackson specializes in more difficult catches down the field.

That's not because Colston is a better route runner?  That's not because Colston doesn't need to solely rely on one asset (speed), to get open?  Look, I'm not saying the gap is light years, it's small... but there is a gap and Colston is on the plus side.  So what, Colston is slightly better than Jackson.  It's not the end of the world and it doesn't mean Jackson stinks.
Maybe he is maybe he isn't a better route runner, but at Randy Moss' prime there were probably 50 receivers in the NFL who were better route runners. Being a better route runner doesn't make one a better receiver.

No it doesn't... just as speed isn't the one thing that will make someone better.  Like I said, the gap isn't big at all, there just happens to be one.  If you give me 2 guys that can catch, I'll take the better route runner over the speed guy every time.  Sure, you get your freaks like Calvin who can do both, but that's not the norm.  Larry Fitzgerald isn't fast... he's just a great route runner with great hands.  The thing that separates him from the crowd is his abilities after the catch.  Go compare Fitzgerald's numbers vs Colston and Jackson.  No one here will argue who the best of the 3 is... but Colston's numbers relate to Fitzgerald's much more than Jackson's.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#36 : May 23, 2013, 03:05:21 PM

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

No, not really. Freeman and Rivers are about on the same level of accuracy, while Brees is in a class much higher than those two. It's definitely not the same, IMO.

Also, Jackson had a career year because he was the vocal point of the offense and was targeted 147 times in 2012. In his 3 most targeted years in SD, Jackson was targeted 100('08), 107('09), and 115('11) times. From 2011 to 2012, Jackson saw a 21.76% increase in targets. That is why his numbers were greater....and most of those targets were not "the long ball".

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.  Also, Brees is at 67% (in New Orleans), Rivers is at 63.6 and Freeman is 58.8.  So if Freeman and Rivers with a 5% difference are about the same level, then an argument could be made that Rivers and Brees at 3.5% are on the same level.

Feel Real Good

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 26746
Offline
#37 : May 23, 2013, 03:12:11 PM

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.
No it isn't. It's because of offensive philosophy. The Saints run a pass-first west coast system that focuses on short, high completion percentage passes. The Saints have been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one since Payton has been there. The Chargers and Bucs are play action teams that set up the pass with the run. The Bucs were #13 in pass attempts, throwing 105 fewer passes than the Saints. In 2011 San Diego was #9 in pass attempts, throwing 80 fewer passes than the Saints. That's why Colston has so many catches.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 12975
Online
#38 : May 23, 2013, 03:15:36 PM

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

No, not really. Freeman and Rivers are about on the same level of accuracy, while Brees is in a class much higher than those two. It's definitely not the same, IMO.

Also, Jackson had a career year because he was the vocal point of the offense and was targeted 147 times in 2012. In his 3 most targeted years in SD, Jackson was targeted 100('08), 107('09), and 115('11) times. From 2011 to 2012, Jackson saw a 21.76% increase in targets. That is why his numbers were greater....and most of those targets were not "the long ball".

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.  Also, Brees is at 67% (in New Orleans), Rivers is at 63.6 and Freeman is 58.8.  So if Freeman and Rivers with a 5% difference are about the same level, then an argument could be made that Rivers and Brees at 3.5% are on the same level.

So completion % is the sole stat that determines accuracy? Is Vjax as good of a route runner as Colston...that's a debate worth having...but to say that he isn't a very good one and that is why we wasn't targeted...? Feels like a pretty big reach, man.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#39 : May 23, 2013, 03:17:25 PM

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.
No it isn't. It's because of offensive philosophy. The Saints run a pass-first west coast system that focuses on short, high completion percentage passes. The Saints have been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one since Payton has been there. The Chargers and Bucs are play action teams that set up the pass with the run. The Bucs were #13 in pass attempts, throwing 105 fewer passes than the Saints. In 2011 San Diego was #9 in pass attempts, throwing 80 fewer passes than the Saints. That's why Colston has so many catches.

From '07-'11 (not counting 2010 where he only played 5 games), Vincent Jackson was targeted on 20% of all passes thrown by Rivers.  From '06-'12 (not counting 2008 where he only played in 11 games), Colston was targeted on 19.9% of Bree's passes.  System is irrelevant.  Both players were targeted just as often as the other and Colston caught the ball at a higher rate... 9%.  He's a better pass catcher, plain and simple.

TBayXXXVII

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5710
Offline
#40 : May 23, 2013, 03:19:49 PM

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

No, not really. Freeman and Rivers are about on the same level of accuracy, while Brees is in a class much higher than those two. It's definitely not the same, IMO.

Also, Jackson had a career year because he was the vocal point of the offense and was targeted 147 times in 2012. In his 3 most targeted years in SD, Jackson was targeted 100('08), 107('09), and 115('11) times. From 2011 to 2012, Jackson saw a 21.76% increase in targets. That is why his numbers were greater....and most of those targets were not "the long ball".

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.  Also, Brees is at 67% (in New Orleans), Rivers is at 63.6 and Freeman is 58.8.  So if Freeman and Rivers with a 5% difference are about the same level, then an argument could be made that Rivers and Brees at 3.5% are on the same level.

So completion % is the sole stat that determines accuracy? Is Vjax as good of a route runner as Colston...that's a debate worth having...but to say that he isn't a very good one and that is why we wasn't targeted...? Feels like a pretty big reach, man.


Towards the end of his tenure in San Diego he was better, but the fact that it took him 3 years to be a focal point in their offense is proof of that... either that, or he couldn't catch.  Colston stepped in from Day 1 and was an immediate weapon.

chace1986

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 12975
Online
#41 : May 23, 2013, 03:25:16 PM

That's fair on the "day 1", but I do think that the system/QB situation made things a little easier for Colston than it did Jackson in SD.

At the end of day, there are certainly a lot worse WRs that could be placed higher than V-Jax in a personal ranking. Having Colston higher than V-Jax isn't a slap in the face to V-Jax...Colston is a top 15 WR in the league and has been consistently productive. So, to me personally, it's not that big of a deal that you have him ahead of V-Jax. I just disagree with a few of the parameters used in arriving at that conclusion, along with him being higher of course....but no one's rankings will be the same.
: May 23, 2013, 03:27:52 PM chace1986


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

youngone

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 11773
Offline
#42 : May 23, 2013, 03:26:42 PM

To simply say it's QB accuracy is like saying that Freeman is more accurate than Rivers.  Jackson put up better numbers in Tampa because Jackson's biggest asset is his speed to get separation.  Freeman's biggest weapon is the long ball.  They compliment each other... that's why Jackson had a career year.  Just like Colston and Brees.  If Colston were in San Diego, I don't think his numbers would be any worse.  He's a excellent route runner and pass catcher.  He'll do well with virtually any QB.  I will say that Colston's numbers would suffer with Freeman, but again, that's because their strength's don't compliment each other.

No, not really. Freeman and Rivers are about on the same level of accuracy, while Brees is in a class much higher than those two. It's definitely not the same, IMO.

Also, Jackson had a career year because he was the vocal point of the offense and was targeted 147 times in 2012. In his 3 most targeted years in SD, Jackson was targeted 100('08), 107('09), and 115('11) times. From 2011 to 2012, Jackson saw a 21.76% increase in targets. That is why his numbers were greater....and most of those targets were not "the long ball".

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.  Also, Brees is at 67% (in New Orleans), Rivers is at 63.6 and Freeman is 58.8.  So if Freeman and Rivers with a 5% difference are about the same level, then an argument could be made that Rivers and Brees at 3.5% are on the same level.

So completion % is the sole stat that determines accuracy? Is Vjax as good of a route runner as Colston...that's a debate worth having...but to say that he isn't a very good one and that is why we wasn't targeted...? Feels like a pretty big reach, man.


Towards the end of his tenure in San Diego he was better, but the fact that it took him 3 years to be a focal point in their offense is proof of that... either that, or he couldn't catch.  Colston stepped in from Day 1 and was an immediate weapon.
Tomlinson and Gates had nothing to do with why he had to wait his turn to be main piece?

BucNY

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 7453
Offline
#43 : May 23, 2013, 03:29:46 PM

I could name 20 WRs better than Danny Amendola. This dude must be smoking crack.

+1

\\\\\\\"This forum needs a poster like BucNY now more than ever\\\\\\\"
      - Everyone

Feel Real Good

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 26746
Offline
#44 : May 23, 2013, 03:30:41 PM

The lack of targeting was because Jackson wasn't a very good route runner.
No it isn't. It's because of offensive philosophy. The Saints run a pass-first west coast system that focuses on short, high completion percentage passes. The Saints have been #1 or #2 in pass attempts every year but one since Payton has been there. The Chargers and Bucs are play action teams that set up the pass with the run. The Bucs were #13 in pass attempts, throwing 105 fewer passes than the Saints. In 2011 San Diego was #9 in pass attempts, throwing 80 fewer passes than the Saints. That's why Colston has so many catches.

From '07-'11 (not counting 2010 where he only played 5 games), Vincent Jackson was targeted on 20% of all passes thrown by Rivers.  From '06-'12 (not counting 2008 where he only played in 11 games), Colston was targeted on 19.9% of Bree's passes.  System is irrelevant.  Both players were targeted just as often as the other and Colston caught the ball at a higher rate... 9%.  He's a better pass catcher, plain and simple.
Does Colston have incremenetally better hands? Maybe. I don't know. But the numbers are because Colston catches balls closer to the line of scrimmage where they're easier to catch. For his career he averages 13.9 yards per reception. Jackson is a deep ball receiver where it's harder for QB's to throw as accurately and thus harder for receivers to bring them down. He's averaged 17.8 yards per reception over his career.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Where would you rank Vincent Jackson, among the best WR's in the league ? « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools