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VinBucFan

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#210 : June 16, 2013, 10:49:27 PM

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/16/18990511-man-shot-in-utah-church-while-attending-mass?lite

John Galt?

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#211 : June 19, 2013, 12:36:54 PM



Maybe it would make sense to you if I said that you are arguing against a PRO-GUN argument that is all over these boards; namely, that its not guns, that we should focus on its mental illness. 

You are highlighting precisely why focusing on mental illness to the exclusion of guns makes no sense.  The only person with a mental illenss that could be stopped by a background check is a person who has been adjudictaed mentallly incompetent or dangerous. We should stop thoise people, no doubt, but as I already said earlier in the thread (discussing the CA propsed statute) it would only apply to an incredibly small number of people, that is the problem and that is why any solkution has to focus, at least in part, on guns --- they are more easily controlled.

So how do you propose to "control" guns?


I have found that the best way to control guns is to use a firm grip and practice often at the local range.


Bucfucious

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#212 : June 19, 2013, 12:46:55 PM




Maybe it would make sense to you if I said that you are arguing against a PRO-GUN argument that is all over these boards; namely, that its not guns, that we should focus on its mental illness. 

You are highlighting precisely why focusing on mental illness to the exclusion of guns makes no sense.

Yeah, over half of all gun deaths are suicides, so I guess focusing on mental illness makes no sense at all. Unless your agenda was to prevent gun deaths, clearly not the case here.


deadzone

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#213 : June 19, 2013, 12:52:18 PM

I whacked my job 3 days ago.....good now..

VinBucFan

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#214 : June 19, 2013, 12:54:47 PM




Maybe it would make sense to you if I said that you are arguing against a PRO-GUN argument that is all over these boards; namely, that its not guns, that we should focus on its mental illness. 

You are highlighting precisely why focusing on mental illness to the exclusion of guns makes no sense.

Yeah, over half of all gun deaths are suicides, so I guess focusing on mental illness makes no sense at all. Unless your agenda was to prevent gun deaths, clearly not the case here.

obvious troll ^^^, but  . . . I have said ad nauseum that we should focus on mental health JUST not to the exlcusion of guns. Hey, in fact  . . .it says that in the quote you used . . .err . . ignored . . err . . . used.

lol

VinBucFan

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#215 : June 19, 2013, 12:55:57 PM



Maybe it would make sense to you if I said that you are arguing against a PRO-GUN argument that is all over these boards; namely, that its not guns, that we should focus on its mental illness. 

You are highlighting precisely why focusing on mental illness to the exclusion of guns makes no sense.  The only person with a mental illenss that could be stopped by a background check is a person who has been adjudictaed mentallly incompetent or dangerous. We should stop thoise people, no doubt, but as I already said earlier in the thread (discussing the CA propsed statute) it would only apply to an incredibly small number of people, that is the problem and that is why any solkution has to focus, at least in part, on guns --- they are more easily controlled.

So how do you propose to "control" guns?


I have found that the best way to control guns is to use a firm grip and practice often at the local range.

agree

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#216 : June 19, 2013, 01:01:28 PM

If your agenda was to prevent gun deaths, common sense dictates that the number one source of gun deaths would be the focus of your attention. Yet, somehow, that's not the case...

Bucfucious

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#217 : June 19, 2013, 01:04:22 PM

...unless there's a long thread around here someplace where you continually post stories about treating mental illness, and I've somehow missed it?

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#218 : June 19, 2013, 01:15:39 PM

If your agenda was to prevent gun deaths, common sense dictates that the number one source of gun deaths would be the focus of your attention. Yet, somehow, that's not the case...

mental illness is the "number one source of gun deaths"?    link?


even accepting your premise, when is someone one mentally incompetent to own a gun? Stated differently, what is the legal bar to denying a citizen a constitutional right based on a mental illness?  Is it enough that someone says, "that guy is nuts" or does the person have to be adjudicated mentally incompetent first?

I look forward to your thoughts on the questions in bold

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#219 : June 19, 2013, 01:25:07 PM

Here is the problem with any type of gun control. Only the law abiding obey laws. Murder or shooting someone is already against the law so adding a 2nd charge really doesn't accomplish much unless you catch the perp before he shoots. To do that, you have to identify the perp as a potential threat but how do you do that. Now if the police had access to doctor/psychiatrist records (which are protected by Dr. /patient confidentiality) they could focus on the crazies. If the Doc in Connecticut had told police "hey this guy is on some serious psychotropics and is unstable as heck" then the police could have got a warrant, searched his house, watched his mail, and arrested him for having "illegal firearms" before he shoot up an Elementary school. But the Doc would have lost his license??? If the psychologist in California had told police "this guy is a wack-job, watch him" then the police could have arrested him for receiving illegal weapons parts and prevented the Santa Monica tragedy, but the psychologist would have been disbarred???

Tougher gun laws would not have deterred either the Santa Monica or the Sandy Hook killers since they already planned on disregarding the laws-ANY LAW.

But a change in the Doctor/patient confidentiality rules could have easily deterred both killers without any change to gun laws that affect the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners.

A wackjob can kill a lot more people with ANFRO (see Ok City) than with an AR-15, but we can't ban diesel or fertilizer. But we can watch known wackjobs and see if they are buying large amounts of either ingredient.

So which Right do we trade for security? 2nd Amendment or Doctor patient confidentiality?? One probably won't have much effect, the other will, but either way a right is being downgraded.



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#220 : June 19, 2013, 01:26:13 PM

Suicide is the number one source of gun deaths. If you would like to present a case that there's no connection between suicide and mental illness, I'll gladly critique it for you.

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#221 : June 19, 2013, 01:29:11 PM

Suicide is the number one source of gun deaths. If you would like to present a case that there's no connection between suicide and mental illness, I'll gladly critique it for you.

Let us hear it..........

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#222 : June 19, 2013, 01:33:00 PM

Suicide is the number one source of gun deaths. If you would like to present a case that there's no connection between suicide and mental illness, I'll gladly critique it for you.


Any connection is irrelevant and is merely an attempt to sidetrack us from the real need for a ban on guns, knives, razor blades, rope and tall buildings or bridges.


VinBucFan

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#223 : June 19, 2013, 01:34:10 PM

Suicide is the number one source of gun deaths. If you would like to present a case that there's no connection between suicide and mental illness, I'll gladly critique it for you.

suicide is the "number one source of gun deaths"?   link?

In any event, since you link suicide and mental illness, why did you skip by the mental illness question:

even accepting your premise, when is someone one mentally incompetent to own a gun? Stated differently, what is the legal bar to denying a citizen a constitutional right based on a mental illness?  Is it enough that someone says, "that guy is nuts" or does the person have to be adjudicated mentally incompetent first?

I look forward to your thoughts on the questions in bold

what are your thoughts?

Bucfucious

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#224 : June 19, 2013, 01:41:12 PM

"A change in the Doctor/patient confidentiality rules could have easily deterred both killers without any change to gun laws that affect the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners."

Doctors are already required by law to report any patient that threatens to harm someone, or if they believe that they intend to. Let's not open this huge can of worms, there are numerous reasons why doctor/patient confidentiality is sacrosanct.
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