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JDouble

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#60 : June 11, 2013, 08:46:02 PM

A GM that never takes a 1st round QB is doomed no matter what. And don't say it was Gruden. Gruden told Rodgers we would take him if he was there. Obviously Allen made that call.
you assume a LOT.


I assume nothing. Allen was thew GM. It falls on his shoulders even if it was Gruden who said to pass. Just like Freeman and Dom are linked, even if it was Raheem banging on the desk for him.


GameTime

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#61 : June 11, 2013, 08:48:29 PM

I assume nothing. Allen was thew GM. It falls on his shoulders even if it was Gruden who said to pass. Just like Freeman and Dom are linked, even if it was Raheem banging on the desk for him.
if you are just assigning blame, sure.  i thought you were stating you knew who really had final say and the dynamics in the HC/GM relationship during that time.

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#62 : June 11, 2013, 08:49:37 PM

A GM that never takes a 1st round QB is doomed no matter what. And don't say it was Gruden. Gruden told Rodgers we would take him if he was there. Obviously Allen made that call.
you assume a LOT.


I assume nothing. Allen was thew GM. It falls on his shoulders even if it was Gruden who said to pass. Just like Freeman and Dom are linked, even if it was Raheem banging on the desk for him.

What if Joel and/or Bryan made the call?

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#63 : June 11, 2013, 10:32:09 PM

To be fair Allen wasn't given much to work with from a FA standpoint but neither did Dom to start out. Dom at least has done a decent job drafting. Couldn't say the same for Allen.

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#64 : June 11, 2013, 10:33:59 PM

Allen didnt have the luxury of spending money like Dom does

Who do you say this


JDouble

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#65 : June 11, 2013, 11:35:09 PM

Allen was allowed to spend. He went after Jake Plummer....but Plummer decided to retired rather than come work with Gruden.


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#66 : June 11, 2013, 11:45:31 PM

Dominick has done a better job, Imp.

Nothing beats trading up for Decter Jackson. WTF?! Little return guy from Appalachin state who wasn't even a productive college receiver. That's one of those picks that's truly unforgivable


This guy...

JDouble

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#67 : June 12, 2013, 12:34:57 AM

Agreed....although trading up for Benn and Stocker isn't a whole lot better.


tripblood

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#68 : June 12, 2013, 12:43:10 AM

Agreed....although trading up for Benn and Stocker isn't a whole lot better.

At the time Benn was a solid pick. Most people liked him from a talen perspective and we were desperate for wr's. when he was taken we had yet to select Mike Williams or even know that he was going to be a good player.

Stocker on the other hand hasn't performed to even his 4th round billing and Dom traded a future 4th for him. How high was he on the draft board? He just doesn't have enough speed for me to be excited enough to trade that much for a blocking end.


This guy...

jerseybucsfan

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#69 : June 12, 2013, 03:14:36 AM

"At the time" is no defense. He didn't pan out. However I like stocker's chances this year.

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#70 : June 12, 2013, 05:48:16 AM

Allen took over a tough cap situation, but he had FIVE years to get the cap under control. He got rid of our defensive stars and didn't have an all pro QB eating up $20M a year.....so how is it anyones fault but his own that we were in cap hell with little talent to show for it? He signed old washed up duds and gave them big contracts. He passed on Aaron Rodgers That's on him.

And he had draft picks. The picks given away for Gruden were during McCay's years. When Allen came in 2004 we had all our draft picks with exception of a 2nd rounder. His first year he used our 1st round pick to take Michael Clayton. Then Cadillac. Davin Joseph. Gaines Adams. and finally Aqib Talib. I suppose those picks weren't his fault either?

His biggest fault is that he never tried to draft a franchise QB...like Aaron Rodgers. Instead he filled the roster with old cast off QBs and late round picks. Say what you will about Freeman, but the first thing Dom did was move up and get his QB in the first round....cause he gets it. If Freeman doesn't excel this year and earn a second contract, then Dom goes down with him, but at least he has a chance. A GM that never takes a 1st round QB is doomed no matter what. And don't say it was Gruden. Gruden told Rodgers we would take him if he was there. Obviously Allen made that call.

Hold on now Jdub. You really think this went down?

Bruce: "Alright guys, I like Carnell. We're getting him."

Gruden: "Hey we have a top pick. I like Rodgers. We need a QB."

Bruce: "Sorry Gruden, I'm in charge."

No friggen way, that pick is on Gruden. QB master should have gotten his guy no ifs ands or buts.

Additionally, everyone knows Rah wanted Freeman from day one. Dom was more sway on Rah than Bruce on Gruden, but Freeman is Rah's pick.

The all powerful GM in the draft nonsense needs to stop, guys. Unless your GM is Parcells or something crazy.
: June 12, 2013, 05:50:58 AM Lord Freesus


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#71 : June 12, 2013, 06:08:02 AM

Can you guys give me the final 53 starting roster of the Allen period, and follow it with the current 53 roster of the Dominik period. I'm not aware of the websites where I can get the information, and I want to compare the GM's ability to build a roster. Solid input would be appreciated. Thanks
was Allen allowed to spend around $300 mil signing vets from other teams his last two years?  Take off Revis, Goldson, Nicks, Jackson, and Wright and how many games would this current team win?

Exactly!   And anyone that believes decisions on what players were to be take for the team was made by Dominik clearly has poor observational skills.  One look at the three drafts under Morris and Dominik compared to the free agency pick ups and drafts of the last 2 years are like Night and Day!  The last 2 years in terms of acquisitions and draft have been probably the best I have seen from the Bucs in their history.

All I need to look at in regards to Dominik was the trading of 5th round pick to grab Benn which was totally unnecessary and the ridiculous pick of Lewis way before he needed to be taken as well as the blind hog stumbling on an acorn free agent pick of Blount who has actually proven why he was just a free agent by what he did last season.   Credit for all the great moves goes to the Glazer's for opening their wallets and Shiano and his staff's astute decisions on the draft and free agency.   The only credit I give Dominik is in the areas of finances and recent deals signed that protect the Bucs cap wise.  Last season I think he was given one assignment pay whatever it takes to sign a particular free agent.  He has accomplished that task and made Revis Nix and Jackson etc extremely well paid. ( probably more than they deserved but its not my money so doesn't bother me!).

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#72 : June 12, 2013, 07:16:05 AM

Bottom line is this: I much prefer our situation after 5 years with Dominik over the 5 years with Allen. Allen left very little to build on. In fact, he left a demolition project.  Dominik has built a very solid foundation for the future. Not many needs now, other than depth.

I don't see a viable basis for argument here. Gruden/Allen had no plan.

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#73 : June 12, 2013, 07:59:48 AM

Bottom line is this: I much prefer our situation after 5 years with Dominik over the 5 years with Allen. Allen left very little to build on. In fact, he left a demolition project.  Dominik has built a very solid foundation for the future. Not many needs now, other than depth.

I don't see a viable basis for argument here. Gruden/Allen had no plan.
for the most part I agree with you.  Only difference I see is that the foundation of this team is based on mediocracy and we will spend the next 5 years never really contending for a title. 


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#74 : June 12, 2013, 08:04:26 AM

Allen took over a tough cap situation, but he had FIVE years to get the cap under control. He got rid of our defensive stars and didn't have an all pro QB eating up $20M a year.....so how is it anyones fault but his own that we were in cap hell with little talent to show for it? He signed old washed up duds and gave them big contracts. He passed on Aaron Rodgers That's on him.

And he had draft picks. The picks given away for Gruden were during McCay's years. When Allen came in 2004 we had all our draft picks with exception of a 2nd rounder. His first year he used our 1st round pick to take Michael Clayton. Then Cadillac. Davin Joseph. Gaines Adams. and finally Aqib Talib. I suppose those picks weren't his fault either?

His biggest fault is that he never tried to draft a franchise QB...like Aaron Rodgers. Instead he filled the roster with old cast off QBs and late round picks. Say what you will about Freeman, but the first thing Dom did was move up and get his QB in the first round....cause he gets it. If Freeman doesn't excel this year and earn a second contract, then Dom goes down with him, but at least he has a chance. A GM that never takes a 1st round QB is doomed no matter what. And don't say it was Gruden. Gruden told Rodgers we would take him if he was there. Obviously Allen made that call.

Hold on now Jdub. You really think this went down?

Bruce: "Alright guys, I like Carnell. We're getting him."

Gruden: "Hey we have a top pick. I like Rodgers. We need a QB."

Bruce: "Sorry Gruden, I'm in charge."

No friggen way, that pick is on Gruden. QB master should have gotten his guy no ifs ands or buts.

Additionally, everyone knows Rah wanted Freeman from day one. Dom was more sway on Rah than Bruce on Gruden, but Freeman is Rah's pick.

The all powerful GM in the draft nonsense needs to stop, guys. Unless your GM is Parcells or something crazy.
This. I'm pretty sure Gruden told Mike Williams he was going to be the pick, too, so unless he had some grand plan to get two 1st round picks, chances are he was telling anyone and everyone they were going to be the pick. 6-7 years ago on here posters loved the "smokescreens" Gruden and Allen would throw out to disguise their grand plans.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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