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CalcuttaRain

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#15 : June 26, 2013, 11:38:58 AM

"Uncle Tom" is still a  derogatory term and that does not change just because it is used "African Americans towards other African Americans"  C'mon now.  It is meant as a slight, a put down.

I don't recall arguing that it wasn't a slight or a put down. I argued that it wasn't a racial slur, and it isn't. I argued that likening it to Paula Deen throwing plantation parties and using the N-word is a false equivalency, and it is.

Now as to the picture, I agree. Over the line. But so were West's comments. Yet you, Mr. Non-Partisan, didn't seem to take issue with them. Interesting...

Huh? I posted them precisely BECAUSE I  DO take issue with them . . . that should be obvious and its actualy something I comment on regularly.

We need less of that stuff and less of the parsing, distinguishing between a put down and a racial slur? C'mon, that puts you on the same level as West the guy you are bashing.  Look at the person who used the comment and then ask yourself "why all the back pedaling" --- from a person with that level of education and experience -- if not for the fact that it is a slur . . .  its saying that Justice Thomas is less than black, an inferior African American, not a "yellow bellied sneetch,"  borrowing from the good doctor.

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CalcuttaRain

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#16 : June 26, 2013, 11:44:10 AM

and this ruling is not the end of the world, no one is rolling over in their grave

You're right. I'm sure Thurgood Marshall, a man who lived through Jim Crow and dedicated his entire life and career to seeing it ended, a life and career culminated by the passage of the very law that was just partially struck down, would be perfectly fine with it. I'm sure he wouldn't see Clarence Thomas as an Uncle Tom at all...

 ???

The point is Thurdgood Marshall wouldnt recognize America today with an African American President and equal votiing participation in Alabama etc.

Most of the idignation from the left on this issue is false indignation having to do with voting control . .  . and it will be the subject of immediate fear mongering be those on the left who want to be "champions to minorities" for votes. Oh  . . wait . .  yeah . .  like this:

Color me shocked...

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/25/2212281/two-hours-after-the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act-texas-ag-suppresses-minority-voters/

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CalcuttaRain

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#17 : June 26, 2013, 11:50:19 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity#African_descent 

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CBWx2

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#18 : June 26, 2013, 12:16:08 PM

"Uncle Tom" is still a  derogatory term and that does not change just because it is used "African Americans towards other African Americans"  C'mon now.  It is meant as a slight, a put down.

I don't recall arguing that it wasn't a slight or a put down. I argued that it wasn't a racial slur, and it isn't. I argued that likening it to Paula Deen throwing plantation parties and using the N-word is a false equivalency, and it is.

Now as to the picture, I agree. Over the line. But so were West's comments. Yet you, Mr. Non-Partisan, didn't seem to take issue with them. Interesting...

Huh? I posted them precisely BECAUSE I  DO take issue with them . . . that should be obvious and its actualy something I comment on regularly.

Oh, come off it. You took issue with the "Uncle Tom" remark, which is why you posted the article with the caption "Woooops", attached, referencing Rep. Winkler's remarks, not West's. Don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence, Vince.

We need less of that stuff and less of the parsing, distinguishing between a put down and a racial slur? C'mon, that puts you on the same level as West the guy you are bashing. 

No it doesn't. It makes me intellectually honest, and him less so. I didn't make the distinction between a put down and a racial slur, those attacking Winkler did, and I was simply commenting on the distinction that others made. And yes, it is important to distinguish between the two. Putting someone down and using a racial slur are not the same thing. Calling Clarence Thomas a sell-out and calling him a n*gger does garner a different level of contempt, as well it should.

Look at the person who used the comment and then ask yourself "why all the back pedaling" --- from a person with that level of education and experience -- if not for the fact that it is a slur . . . 

He is backpedaling due to public pressure, not because it is a slur. And if you actually look at how his apology is worded, it's not really much of an apology at all. What should be more telling to you is the fact that all of the criticism Winkler has received has come not from African Americans in general, the group who the alleged slur is supposedly aimed at, but rather from black conservatives, and conservatives in general. If any white man had called Clarence Thomas a n*igger, I suspect the outrage wouldn't be so clearly divided along politically ideological lines.


CalcuttaRain

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#19 : June 26, 2013, 12:44:29 PM

"Uncle Tom" is still a  derogatory term and that does not change just because it is used "African Americans towards other African Americans"  C'mon now.  It is meant as a slight, a put down.

I don't recall arguing that it wasn't a slight or a put down. I argued that it wasn't a racial slur, and it isn't. I argued that likening it to Paula Deen throwing plantation parties and using the N-word is a false equivalency, and it is.

Now as to the picture, I agree. Over the line. But so were West's comments. Yet you, Mr. Non-Partisan, didn't seem to take issue with them. Interesting...

Huh? I posted them precisely BECAUSE I  DO take issue with them . . . that should be obvious and its actualy something I comment on regularly.

Oh, come off it. You took issue with the "Uncle Tom" remark, which is why you posted the article with the caption "Woooops", attached, referencing Rep. Winkler's remarks, not West's. Don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence, Vince.

This is my mistake so my apologies, we are talking about different things. I thought the "didnt seem to take issue with them" was a comment about the pictures and the Uncle Tom comment, not West's remarks. I havent heard or read anything about West's remarks other than your characterization and I agree with you they sound absurd (with all due respect though, so does your defense of the Uncle Tom comment)

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CBWx2

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#20 : June 26, 2013, 01:01:16 PM

"Uncle Tom" is still a  derogatory term and that does not change just because it is used "African Americans towards other African Americans"  C'mon now.  It is meant as a slight, a put down.

I don't recall arguing that it wasn't a slight or a put down. I argued that it wasn't a racial slur, and it isn't. I argued that likening it to Paula Deen throwing plantation parties and using the N-word is a false equivalency, and it is.

Now as to the picture, I agree. Over the line. But so were West's comments. Yet you, Mr. Non-Partisan, didn't seem to take issue with them. Interesting...

Huh? I posted them precisely BECAUSE I  DO take issue with them . . . that should be obvious and its actualy something I comment on regularly.

Oh, come off it. You took issue with the "Uncle Tom" remark, which is why you posted the article with the caption "Woooops", attached, referencing Rep. Winkler's remarks, not West's. Don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence, Vince.

This is my mistake so my apologies, we are talking about different things. I thought the "didnt seem to take issue with them" was a comment about the pictures and the Uncle Tom comment, not West's remarks. I havent heard or read anything about West's remarks other than your characterization and I agree with you they sound absurd (with all due respect though, so does your defense of the Uncle Tom comment)

It may sound absurd to you, but ask yourself a question, and answer it honestly; Would Winkler have received more, less, or an equal amount of blow back from the African American community had he referred to Clarence Thomas as a n*gger, sp*ok, or a c*on rather than an Uncle Tom?

We both know the answer to that, and logic would tell you why the answer is what we both know that it is. But I digress.

Vince, what is your opinion on the Supreme Court having the power of judicial review?


CalcuttaRain

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#21 : June 26, 2013, 01:02:19 PM

Calling Clarence Thomas a sell-out and calling him a n*gger does garner a different level of contempt, as well it should.

they are both worthy of contempt. Malcolm X used to liken the term Uncle Tom to"house ni****," So, If you want to draw very fine lines and measure the contempt so be it, but both are racial slurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity

Look at the person who used the comment and then ask yourself "why all the back pedaling" --- from a person with that level of education and experience -- if not for the fact that it is a slur . . . 

He is backpedaling due to public pressure, not because it is a slur. And if you actually look at how his apology is worded, it's not really much of an apology at all. What should be more telling to you is the fact that all of the criticism Winkler has received has come not from African Americans in general, the group who the alleged slur is supposedly aimed at, but rather from black conservatives, and conservatives in general. If any white man had called Clarence Thomas a n*igger, I suspect the outrage wouldn't be so clearly divided along politically ideological lines.

CBW, let me use your own words with minor edits, just to show how thinly you are parsing things. This is what you said:

"He is backpedaling due to public pressure, not because it is a slur."

This is the reality:

"he is back pedaling due to public pressure BECAUSE he used a slur" --

If he had said, "I disagree with the ruling" there's no story, right? . .  it is a story specifically because he chose to call out Thomas (why him and not others, because of his RACE) and then used a raciallly-charged phrase from the slave era. He basically said that Thomas is not a Justice he is just a "house-n****" on the plantation (i.e. the SCOTUS)

On the last part, the manner of his apology, you said this:

"all of the criticism Winkler has received has come not from African Americans in general, the group who the alleged slur is supposedly aimed at,"

The alleged slur, as you call it, was not aimed at the "group" it was aimed at THOMAS in defense of the "group" . . .  and yet you are actually suggesting that the lack of criticism from the group he was defending means it wasnt a racial slur?  C'mon now. The group mostly agree with him, but that has nothing to do with it NOT being a racial slur.  he did call Thomas a "ni*****" he called him a "house """""."
: June 26, 2013, 01:13:30 PM VinBucFan

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#22 : June 26, 2013, 01:04:14 PM

Would Winkler have received more, less, or an equal amount of blow back from the African American community had he referred to Clarence Thomas as a n*gger, **CENSORED**, or a **CENSORED** rather than an Uncle Tom?

We both know the answer to that, and logic would tell you why the answer is what we both know that it is. But I digress.

CBW, that is in essence what he called Thomas, its just that African American larglely agree, so why would there be any substantial blow back. Winkler was pandering

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CBWx2

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#23 : June 26, 2013, 01:05:01 PM

Oh, Vince....smh...


CalcuttaRain

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#24 : June 26, 2013, 01:07:49 PM

Malcolm X:

"So you have two types of Negro. The old type and the new type. Most of you know the old type. When you read about him in history during slavery he was called "Uncle Tom." He was the house Negro. And during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro."

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CalcuttaRain

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#25 : June 26, 2013, 01:09:16 PM

Oh, Vince....smh...

Winkler:  "I think the ruling was awful"

Winkler: "I think Thomas is an Uncle Tom"

which one gets in the news? why? He picked out single Justice  BASED ON HIS RACE . .  . and used an expression that relates to SLAVERY
: June 26, 2013, 01:14:46 PM VinBucFan

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#26 : June 26, 2013, 04:49:44 PM

Malcolm X:

"So you have two types of Negro. The old type and the new type. Most of you know the old type. When you read about him in history during slavery he was called "Uncle Tom." He was the house Negro. And during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro."

First of all, Malcolm X was wrong. In Harriet Beecher-Stowe's novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Uncle Tom was actually the hero. He was far from the the sell-out that his name has since become synonymous for representing. It wasn't until the film adaptation of Stowe's novel that was made 75 years after the book was published that Tom was portrayed as a sell out.

Secondly, a racial slur, by definition, is a derogatory name used disparagingly to describe a racial group. The term "Uncle Tom" isn't a derogatory name for a racial group. If it were, then African Americans would be just as offended by it's use as they are other names that are derogatorily used to disparage their race, like the n-word, for example. You yourself even have admitted that they are not. You, a non-African American, seem to be far more offended by it than any of the African Americans that I know of, sans a few Republican operatives. So again I ask you, what does that tell you?

The term used isn't seen as offensive to the particular racial group, because it is not an attack on one's race, but rather is an attack on their personal values regarding issues pertaining to their own race or ethnicity. And BTW, Winkler attacked all the justices that made the ruling, not just Thomas.

But regardless of the facts presented, I am certain you will continue to portray this how you wish to portray it, and to be honest, I really couldn't care less how you or Allen West wish to portray it. I'm far more interested about the issue regarding judicial review, and why it is that we grant the Supreme Court this authority even though the US Constitution doesn't.


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#27 : June 26, 2013, 05:03:52 PM

Malcolm X:

"So you have two types of Negro. The old type and the new type. Most of you know the old type. When you read about him in history during slavery he was called "Uncle Tom." He was the house Negro. And during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro."

First of all, Malcolm X was wrong. In Harriet Beecher-Stowe's novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Uncle Tom was actually the hero. He was far from the the sell-out that his name has since become synonymous for representing. It wasn't until the film adaptation of Stowe's novel that was made 75 years after the book was published that Tom was portrayed as a sell out.

Secondly, a racial slur, by definition, is a derogatory name used disparagingly to describe a racial group. The term "Uncle Tom" isn't a derogatory name for a racial group. If it were, then African Americans would be just as offended by it's use as they are other names that are derogatorily used to disparage their race, like the n-word, for example. You yourself even have admitted that they are not. You, a non-African American, seem to be far more offended by it than any of the African Americans that I know of, sans a few Republican operatives. So again I ask you, what does that tell you?

The term used isn't seen as offensive to the particular racial group, because it is not an attack on one's race, but rather is an attack on their personal values regarding issues pertaining to their own race or ethnicity. And BTW, Winkler attacked all the justices that made the ruling, not just Thomas.

But regardless of the facts presented, I am certain you will continue to portray this how you wish to portray it, and to be honest, I really couldn't care less how you or Allen West wish to portray it. I'm far more interested about the issue regarding judicial review, and why it is that we grant the Supreme Court this authority even though the US Constitution doesn't.

You want me to explain Marbury v. Madison to you?

I agree though that the other issue is not a big deal

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#28 : June 26, 2013, 06:54:13 PM

For the purposes of dialog, sure. Explain it. Or more to the point, what is your interpretation of the decision? Good decision? Bad decision?


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#29 : June 26, 2013, 07:50:08 PM


"Uncle Tom" is a term generally used by African Americans towards other African Americans. It has no historical significance as a racial slur, because people of other races generally never use it as a pejorative against African Americans. Comparing this to Paula Deen using the N-word and throwing plantation parties is about as false an equivalency as there is.

Oh really?

I might just know a whole bunch of folks who would take exception to what you just said.

You might. I might also know an even bigger group of folks that wouldn't.

Uncle Tom is a term used within a ethnic or minority group to identify someone in the same group as being subservient to the dominant culture. African Americans coined the term, but others have used it, for example, Jane Fonda once referred to women in powerful positions who treat other women poorly in the work place as "Uncle Toms". It is not a racial pejorative, as it is rarely, if ever, used by one racial group to demean another racial group.

But if you want to pretend that this is akin to using the N-word and throwing parties that celebrate the culture of slavery, then have at it. It is, after all, a free country.

And the book written by Harriet Beecher Stowe dealing with African American Stereotypes during Slavery is called what?
: June 26, 2013, 07:56:23 PM spartan
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