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VinBucFan

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#30 : July 09, 2013, 07:30:52 AM

Enforcement of laws is the issue.

Not "the" issue, enforcement is AN issue .., unless you can tell me what law is not being enforced when a private party sells a gun without a background check?

Like everything in life, the problem is not susceptible to improvement by flicking a single switch

VinBucFan

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#31 : July 09, 2013, 07:32:22 AM

What is the overriding social benefit served by the gun show and private sale loopholes? Certainly the loopholes benefit gun manufacturers and distributors, but what's the social value?
: July 09, 2013, 08:00:29 AM VinBucFan

Bucfucious

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#32 : July 09, 2013, 08:50:34 AM

Legally, the requirements for selling a firearm do not change whether you're selling it in a submarine, at a gun show, or on the space shuttle; i.e. there is no gun show loophole. It's an amazingly simple concept.


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#33 : July 09, 2013, 08:53:23 AM

Hey! Let's go over the same thing for the fiftieth time!

No, let's not.

VinBucFan

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#34 : July 09, 2013, 08:56:36 AM

Legally, the requirements for selling a firearm do not change whether you're selling it in a submarine, at a gun show, or on the space shuttle; i.e. there is no gun show loophole. It's an amazingly simple concept.


LMAO --  ^^^ The Truth in Illuminator Land ..... oops .... Von Mises Land .... shhhh ....

VinBucFan

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#35 : July 09, 2013, 08:59:02 AM

Hey! Let's go over the same thing for the fiftieth time!

No, let's not.

Illuminator borrowing a trick from his also banned now returned buddy Java.   Aaaah, the good ole days have returned!!

Funniest thing is you started the thread and the flaw smacked you down and now you're trying to pick yourself back up.  Gotta love OMNISCIENT private gun sellers!  lol

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#36 : July 09, 2013, 09:06:05 AM

The flaw here is your walnut sized brain. Skip your girly-man threats and tell us the difference between selling a firearm at a gun show and any other location. Define this "gun show loophole" if you can.

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#37 : July 09, 2013, 09:11:02 AM

The flaw here is your walnut sized brain. Skip your girly-man threats and tell us the difference between selling a firearm at a gun show and any other location. Define this "gun show loophole" if you can.

I was gonna reply, but I decided it isn't worth it to even be perceived as helping Vince, so I'm just gonna wait and see how this turns out. Have at it, counselor... ;D


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#38 : July 09, 2013, 09:16:55 AM


Some people will always be willing to break the law, but that doesnt mean we dont pass laws and laws do impact conduct, especially when enforced vigorously.


Color me stupid but the argument of passing more laws because people aren't adhering to the ones we have never really strikes me as a smart or logical response.

That's because you want to paint the extreme as commonplace. Many people do follow the law, especially when enforcement and penalties truly put the lawbreaker at risk AND - color me stupid - but you need a law to enforce. In other words, one cannot lament that private sellers don't require background checks when no law requires them to. The first step is have the law. The second is enforce it. Some will still break the law, but the flow will be more restricted, which is the point.

Then please explain to me how making new laws is going to help if we are not adequately enforcing the ones we already have? To me that smacks of just more laws to not adequately enforce. Now, if you enforced the laws you have, THEN found that they were inadequate, speak to me, until then .....

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#39 : July 09, 2013, 09:23:44 AM

Wait a minute, isn't enforcing the laws we already have synonymous with doing nothing? You have to pass new laws in order to show that you've done something.

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#40 : July 09, 2013, 09:41:12 AM


Some people will always be willing to break the law, but that doesnt mean we dont pass laws and laws do impact conduct, especially when enforced vigorously.


Color me stupid but the argument of passing more laws because people aren't adhering to the ones we have never really strikes me as a smart or logical response.

That's because you want to paint the extreme as commonplace.

You mean like the number of private sellers at a gun show vs. licensed sellers at gun shows and any other time, Counselor?


VinBucFan

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#41 : July 09, 2013, 10:40:11 AM

The flaw here is your walnut sized brain.  . . . . . Define this "gun show loophole" if you can.

Now why do I need to define it when you already did:

Funny stuff, you break the sentences apart and the nonsense is obvious:

There is no "gun show loophole," it is a myth.

because . .

A licensed firearm dealer must perform a background check, regardless of where the sale takes place.

and . .

A private seller is forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms, regardless of where the sale takes place.

lol

so  . . . background checks by licensed firearm dealers and OMNISCIENT private sellers . .  . therefore . .  the "gun show loophole" is a "myth"

LMAO

Here's what the ATF has had to say,, but I am going to stick with your definition:

From 2004 to 2006, ATF conducted surveillance and undercover investigations at 195 gun shows (approximately 2% of all shows). Specific targeting of suspected individuals (77%) resulted in 121 individual arrests and 5,345 firearms seizures. Seventy nine of the 121 ATF operation plans were known suspects previously under investigation.[1]

Additionally, ATF Field Offices report that:

Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 guns legally purchased at gun shows from licensed dealers in the city of Richmond, Virginia, were later recovered in connection with criminal activity. Bouchard notes that, "These figures do not take into account firearms that may have been sold at Richmond area gun shows by unlicensed sellers, as these transactions are more difficult to track."[2] It is noteworthy that the "in connection with criminal activity" category includes stolen guns later recovered from burglaries, but the report does not specify how many guns in the 400 gun figure cited were not guns used in the commission of a crime, but that were rather the fruits of criminal activity.

The Department of Justice reports, "after reviewing hundreds of trace reports associated with guns used in crime recovered in the New Orleans area and interviewing known gang members and other criminals, ATF Special Agents identified area gun shows as a source used by local gang members and other criminals to obtain guns."[1]

In 2003 and 2004, the San Francisco ATF Field Division conducted six general operations at Reno, Nevada, gun shows to investigate interstate firearms trafficking. During these operations, "agents purchased firearms and identified violations related to "off paper" sales, sales to out-of-state residents, and dealing in firearms without a license." The "ATF seized or purchased 400 firearms before making arrests and executing search warrants, which resulted in the seizure of an additional 600 firearms and the recovery of explosives."[1]

ATF's Columbus Field Division conducted its anti-trafficking operations based on intelligence from Cleveland police that "many of the guns recovered in high-crime areas of the city had been purchased at local gun shows." Subsequent gun show sting operations resulted in the seizure of "5 guns, one indictment, and two pending indictments for felony possession of a firearm." The state of Ohio is one of the top ten source states for recovered guns used in crime.[1]

The ATF's Phoenix Field Division reported that "many gun shows attracted large numbers of gang members from Mexico and California. They often bought large quantities of assault weapons and smuggled them into Mexico or transported them to California."[1] Garen Wintemute, a professor at the University of California at Davis, calls Arizona and Texas a "gunrunner's paradise."[27]

VinBucFan

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#42 : July 09, 2013, 10:49:38 AM


Some people will always be willing to break the law, but that doesnt mean we dont pass laws and laws do impact conduct, especially when enforced vigorously.


Color me stupid but the argument of passing more laws because people aren't adhering to the ones we have never really strikes me as a smart or logical response.

That's because you want to paint the extreme as commonplace. Many people do follow the law, especially when enforcement and penalties truly put the lawbreaker at risk AND - color me stupid - but you need a law to enforce. In other words, one cannot lament that private sellers don't require background checks when no law requires them to. The first step is have the law. The second is enforce it. Some will still break the law, but the flow will be more restricted, which is the point.

Then please explain to me how making new laws is going to help if we are not adequately enforcing the ones we already have? To me that smacks of just more laws to not adequately enforce. Now, if you enforced the laws you have, THEN found that they were inadequate, speak to me, until then .....

Florida is a perfect example.  As I recall, could be off in some of the details/dates, but about a decade ago, after a grotesque shooting with a gun from a gun show (as I recall), the Florida legislator lept into action and "closed" the gunshow loophole in Florida.  Now, two lessons from that:

(1) "CLOSING" the gun show loophole did NOT close the private seller loophole.  Walk outside the tent and by a gun from a private person and it is yours without a background check.  So, to answer your question to have UNIVERSAL background checks you need a NEW law requiring private sellers to get background checks too and it need to be ENFORCED (see #2 below). This will not be a perfect soltuuon because none exist, but it will reduce the flow in propertion with neforcement (see #2 below)

(2) -- you say "enforce the laws" but the laws are INTENTIONALLY written by scared legislators to be virtually unenforceable. The law passed in Floirda left enforcement of the gun show background check requirement, as I recall, to the individual counties and made the violation a COUNTY ORDINANCE.  Your local sheriff does not have the resources to neforce county ordinance violations and, in fact, they are typically only enforced upon private citizen complaint.  This is an example of the legislative "two-step" that happens all the time because legislators are scared of the NRA.  They have an event like a mass murder and "pass a law" that is almost uneforceable and then gun owners repeat the mantra "enforce the laws on the books!."  I agree we should, but that starts with passing laws with teeth.

As I mentioned in response to a comment above, nothing in life is black and white. The open flow of guns in this country is the result of loopholes and (by-design) lack of enforcement, not just one or the other

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#43 : July 09, 2013, 11:15:13 AM

Yeah, Vin, I had already read the wiki entry on gun shows. Now, the question, in case you've forgotten already, is can you define "gun show loophole."

So far, the answer is no.

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#44 : July 09, 2013, 11:20:06 AM

Lol. It's kind of funny how you keep posting stuff showing people getting arrested for breaking the law then insisting that it comprises some sort of "loophole." If they got arrested for it, then it's already illegal. If it's already illegal, where's the loophole that more laws will close?
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