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#45 : August 26, 2013, 04:03:21 PM

Freeman actually started out reasonably solid.  He was going through (or trying to go through) his progressions, and other than the one dump off to Mike his decisions seemed right (and even that worked out).  This was a good sign to me.  But after a while he started to make some questionable decisions, and after that just some horrible throws.  It's like he lost his focus and went back to the "old Josh".

I disagree strongly about a few of the things Leo said though (shocking, I know).  The one "perfect first down pass" that Mike dropped was actually a half a beat too late and the defender got back in time to contest it, for example.  That kind of thing is going to happen to everyone now and again, it's just frustrating that it seems to happen to Josh more than "now and again".  The throw to the middle for Mike was too high, and not something you want do to your WR in general.  Could he have caught it?  Maybe, he got high enough for it.  But he shouldn't have needed to.  This was a great example of people talking about someone needing to bail out Josh.  It was a ball that the WR has to make a play on in order to get, rather than one that hits him when and where it should.  Again, this happens, but it just happens a lot with Josh.  He needs to clean that up.  And then you have just some downright ugly throws.  That's just not acceptable.  Too many of those for a guy who wants to get paid.

The "miscommunications" thing is an issue we need to be concerned about but Leo gives the impression that this was all on the WRs.  The one he goes into detail with with VJax, for example.  The safety was deep, and was giving help over the top on that play.  It really looked like VJax mad the right call cutting in.  Had he kept going he would have had two defenders all over him when the ball got there.  Can anyone say for certain who made the right decision on that play? Not anyone outside the building.  Leo and a lot of people here will give Josh the benefit of the doubt on that one.  I don't, myself.  It less likely  that we have consistent misreads among every WR than we have consistent misreads from one player.  Yes, there are going to be misreads by the WRs, it's not a perfect world.  But the common denominator is #5.  And this kind of stuff happened before the current regime as well.



I would just add, when he started out good, then went south after that, it was the increased pass rush to blame. The O-line was garbage.

The OL was awful.  Not going to dispute that.  Josh was dealt a weak hand there.  And the playcalling, with all those slow developing plays didn't help either.  What is scary though is I think we are going to see a lot of aggressive playcalling against us this year.  Get to Josh quick before those plays develop.  Force him into his weak spot which is quick, accurate throws and quick decisions.  They need to really work in some bread and butter blitz beaters and drill it until it's instinctive. 


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#46 : August 26, 2013, 04:37:03 PM

Freeman actually started out reasonably solid.  He was going through (or trying to go through) his progressions, and other than the one dump off to Mike his decisions seemed right (and even that worked out).  This was a good sign to me.  But after a while he started to make some questionable decisions, and after that just some horrible throws.  It's like he lost his focus and went back to the "old Josh".

I disagree strongly about a few of the things Leo said though (shocking, I know).  The one "perfect first down pass" that Mike dropped was actually a half a beat too late and the defender got back in time to contest it, for example.  That kind of thing is going to happen to everyone now and again, it's just frustrating that it seems to happen to Josh more than "now and again".  The throw to the middle for Mike was too high, and not something you want do to your WR in general.  Could he have caught it?  Maybe, he got high enough for it.  But he shouldn't have needed to.  This was a great example of people talking about someone needing to bail out Josh.  It was a ball that the WR has to make a play on in order to get, rather than one that hits him when and where it should.  Again, this happens, but it just happens a lot with Josh.  He needs to clean that up.  And then you have just some downright ugly throws.  That's just not acceptable.  Too many of those for a guy who wants to get paid.

The "miscommunications" thing is an issue we need to be concerned about but Leo gives the impression that this was all on the WRs.  The one he goes into detail with with VJax, for example.  The safety was deep, and was giving help over the top on that play.  It really looked like VJax mad the right call cutting in.  Had he kept going he would have had two defenders all over him when the ball got there.  Can anyone say for certain who made the right decision on that play? Not anyone outside the building.  Leo and a lot of people here will give Josh the benefit of the doubt on that one.  I don't, myself.  It less likely  that we have consistent misreads among every WR than we have consistent misreads from one player.  Yes, there are going to be misreads by the WRs, it's not a perfect world.  But the common denominator is #5.  And this kind of stuff happened before the current regime as well.

Good points, that is constructive criticism that I can respect.  I do disagree with the pass to VJax, he cuts inside towards the Safety, if he cuts outside which Free threw to no way that Safety makes it over in time and VJax probably has a huge gain after the catch. I thought the pass to Mike was high but thought it was a very catchable ball. Anyways you are right, those passes need to get cleaned up. I am pretty much over the Freeman talk but always get sucked back in to this debate.


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#47 : August 26, 2013, 04:40:06 PM

Freeman actually started out reasonably solid.  He was going through (or trying to go through) his progressions, and other than the one dump off to Mike his decisions seemed right (and even that worked out).  This was a good sign to me.  But after a while he started to make some questionable decisions, and after that just some horrible throws.  It's like he lost his focus and went back to the "old Josh".

I disagree strongly about a few of the things Leo said though (shocking, I know).  The one "perfect first down pass" that Mike dropped was actually a half a beat too late and the defender got back in time to contest it, for example.  That kind of thing is going to happen to everyone now and again, it's just frustrating that it seems to happen to Josh more than "now and again".  The throw to the middle for Mike was too high, and not something you want do to your WR in general.  Could he have caught it?  Maybe, he got high enough for it.  But he shouldn't have needed to.  This was a great example of people talking about someone needing to bail out Josh.  It was a ball that the WR has to make a play on in order to get, rather than one that hits him when and where it should.  Again, this happens, but it just happens a lot with Josh.  He needs to clean that up.  And then you have just some downright ugly throws.  That's just not acceptable.  Too many of those for a guy who wants to get paid.

The "miscommunications" thing is an issue we need to be concerned about but Leo gives the impression that this was all on the WRs.  The one he goes into detail with with VJax, for example.  The safety was deep, and was giving help over the top on that play.  It really looked like VJax mad the right call cutting in.  Had he kept going he would have had two defenders all over him when the ball got there.  Can anyone say for certain who made the right decision on that play? Not anyone outside the building.  Leo and a lot of people here will give Josh the benefit of the doubt on that one.  I don't, myself.  It less likely  that we have consistent misreads among every WR than we have consistent misreads from one player.  Yes, there are going to be misreads by the WRs, it's not a perfect world.  But the common denominator is #5.  And this kind of stuff happened before the current regime as well.

Good points, that is constructive criticism that I can respect.  I do disagree with the pass to VJax, he cuts inside towards the Safety, if he cuts outside which Free threw to no way that Safety makes it over in time and VJax probably has a huge gain after the catch. I thought the pass to Mike was high but thought it was a very catchable ball. Anyways you are right, those passes need to get cleaned up. I am pretty much over the Freeman talk but always get sucked back in to this debate.

On that pass play where VJax is running a post route you can see the snap shot of that picture that the WR at the bottom is late off the snap of the ball (I presume he is running a go route) for some reason why VJax is already pushing a lot of real estate.  If the WR at the bottom is able to threaten much earlier to hold the safety than VJax running the post route is correct.

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#48 : August 26, 2013, 04:51:14 PM

Pretty good read.

Personally, I think they should incorporate more bootlegs and plays that get his feet moving. He's seemingly very accurate when on the move, and it makes DB's second-guess. It also helps to keep defenses from stacking the box too often as well and gives him a lane to run if nothing is there (and blocks hold), and the DB's are dropped way back in coverage.

Freeman is a "gunslinger" type. Meaning, you take the good with the bad, and hope somewhere in between there is success. They've got to let him create plays and run the ball when needed. Way too many coaches fail in this regard as they want to play it close to the vest. You can't do that with Newton, and you can't do that with freeman. Schiano would be wise to allow freeman that chance this season. I know the line was supposed to be a strength, but it's having some troubles at the moment. Letting him roll out of pocket, bootlegs, what have you, will even it out a bit more IMO.

I think they plan to run Martin a lot out of I formation and then run play action boot legs off of it.  I also suspect that the Bucs will be using a lot of RB and WR screens as well to keep defenses off guard.  A lot of the five step plays are right now really materializing because:

1. Pass pro isn't good enough
2. Teams are blitzing
3. QB and WR option routes when the blitz is on have to be altered on a dime and in synch.

Problems 2-3 can be ironed out, but problem 1 has to be schematically covered.  If pass pro is that poor expect more of a dink and dunk offense.  However, I also suspect that the Bucs will have to see one of the TE's step up to make defenses pay down the seem.  Lets hope Crabtree or Stocker can do it.  Maybe Noble?

God, I hope you're right ADW. Love the I form with incorporated movements/gimmicks.

Funny thing is, I still think the better formation for freeman would be the Pro set, but without a TE (sub a RB). He would have two extra blockers, or two outs depending on the defense at the time. Hillis/leonard on one side and martin on the other. Have them run block for eachother while protecting freeman on passing downs. Or they could just go out and catch a quick pass.

They really need some hand/head signals on the WR's too. If they know they're going to go a certain route before the snap, freeman needs to know this. Sully's system is do or die, which I love, but there are mistakes/miscommunications like the one we've seen here to VJ that could be corrected and limited easy. Each game there needs to be a new signal. A head shake, a gesture of some sort that lets freeman get an idea of where they intend to go. Too much time trying to scan the field for guys is wasted that way.

A traditional split pro set is rare in today's NFL as it was at its height in the 80s with the 49ers.  But I too like it for this team given that I like the RB personnel more in terms of blocking and as threats than the TEs.  Imagine Martin and Leonard out of a split back pro set formation and how many things Sullivan can do out of it? Sweeps, draws, counters, etc.

Edit: If Lorig can't go (still injured?), Leonard is the default FB because the other TE's in spot duty haven't proven they can do it.  So, that suggests that I think the Bucs keep Hillis and James to be honest.

Both Hillis and James have upsides in this offense IMO.

And I think the Pro set would allow freeman to have outlet valves on the left and right, while still maintaining that potshot approach that sully likes to use with VJ and MW.

I say, why try to "hide" what they're doing using the I-form as cover. Just pin their ears back on defense the entire game and make the "cover" be the "who's going to catch it now" routine. Freeman's not the kind of QB that will keep a defense guessing, but he is the kind of QB that will make you pay once in awhile if a wideout isn't covered down field. Because of that, we need a plethora of RBs to make absolutely sure we can maintain the run if martin gets the injury bug.

The way I'm looking at it is Leonard or Hillis on one side, martin on the other (depending on the team we face). If the team is not so good at tackling tough runningbacks, we call up Hillis, if they're strong against tough runners and we need finesse, we call on Leonard. On passing downs it would be up to freeman to choose wheither they stay and block, or take the outs depending on the look the defense is giving.

Some of those tosses over dE's heads turn into things of beauty, then again, if you're mark Sanchez, it can get real ugly really fast.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#49 : August 26, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

He looks a little more comfortable out there than he has in the past.  But if the O-line doesn't hold up, it could be the return of the happy feet.



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#50 : August 26, 2013, 05:34:35 PM

He looks a little more comfortable out there than he has in the past.  But if the O-line doesn't hold up, it could be the return of the happy feet.

Are you sure? I could've sworn Jeff Garcia retired.  ;)

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#51 : August 26, 2013, 06:27:16 PM

Freeman actually started out reasonably solid.  He was going through (or trying to go through) his progressions, and other than the one dump off to Mike his decisions seemed right (and even that worked out).  This was a good sign to me.  But after a while he started to make some questionable decisions, and after that just some horrible throws.  It's like he lost his focus and went back to the "old Josh".

I disagree strongly about a few of the things Leo said though (shocking, I know).  The one "perfect first down pass" that Mike dropped was actually a half a beat too late and the defender got back in time to contest it, for example.  That kind of thing is going to happen to everyone now and again, it's just frustrating that it seems to happen to Josh more than "now and again".  The throw to the middle for Mike was too high, and not something you want do to your WR in general.  Could he have caught it?  Maybe, he got high enough for it.  But he shouldn't have needed to.  This was a great example of people talking about someone needing to bail out Josh.  It was a ball that the WR has to make a play on in order to get, rather than one that hits him when and where it should.  Again, this happens, but it just happens a lot with Josh.  He needs to clean that up.  And then you have just some downright ugly throws.  That's just not acceptable.  Too many of those for a guy who wants to get paid.

The "miscommunications" thing is an issue we need to be concerned about but Leo gives the impression that this was all on the WRs.  The one he goes into detail with with VJax, for example.  The safety was deep, and was giving help over the top on that play.  It really looked like VJax mad the right call cutting in.  Had he kept going he would have had two defenders all over him when the ball got there.  Can anyone say for certain who made the right decision on that play? Not anyone outside the building.  Leo and a lot of people here will give Josh the benefit of the doubt on that one.  I don't, myself.  It less likely  that we have consistent misreads among every WR than we have consistent misreads from one player.  Yes, there are going to be misreads by the WRs, it's not a perfect world.  But the common denominator is #5.  And this kind of stuff happened before the current regime as well.


Maybe he watched Baltimore last year. Flacco was throwing the ball up above the short cb's and into the outstretched arms of his wr's.

That was the recipe for Superbowl success last year. And yet you come in here and bash Freeman for throwing just like the Superbowl champion qb from last year.

GTFOH with your **CENSORED**.

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#52 : August 26, 2013, 10:03:45 PM

Sack 4 is the one that bothers me the most.  Stocker realizes he's the hot read but Freeman ignores him. A poor block by James still gives Freeman time to throw to mike will but he doesn't. And even after all that it's quite possible that Freeman could have read James position and followed his block...but he doesn't

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#53 : August 28, 2013, 02:42:04 AM

Just watched it again.

Mike Williams dropped three catchable balls. Don't bring your troll ass in here and say they were poorly thrown balls. All three hit him in the hands.

VJax clearly ran a wrong route right into the waiting safety and Josh threw it where it needed to be thrown.

Bynham whiffed on a block and left a rusher unblocked for a sack.

WTF did the trolls see? You fools who are ragging on our starting QB for WHAT? 2 weeks before the lights come on for real need to STFU. Suck it you bloody wankers.

The Bynham wiff was horrible but the fact that Josh couldn't break a pathetic arm tackle attempt was worse. Not to mention he took 5 steps back out of the shotgun already.



How do you explain this video. You are an ass clown.

I watched the SEA GB game and that was the second consecutive sack where a LB came practically untouched and sacked Russell Wilson. That's right two consecutive sacks on two consecutive plays.

Who's freaking fault is it?  Wilson or the blocker ass clown?

Mike Glennon
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6\' 6\" 210
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#54 : August 28, 2013, 09:29:28 AM

Good analysis in the original post.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#55 : August 28, 2013, 01:49:08 PM

I just rewatched the game (it's up on youtube...for now).  Whatever you think about Freeman, he wasn't the biggest issue this game.  In fact, I saw a lot of good decisions, and improved accuracy.  I missed the game the first time around, but I feel much better about the team after watching the game than I did reading the box score.   I think that if the offensive line gets healthier, and the receivers perform like they do normally, the regular season will bring good returns on all of our offseason suffering.

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#56 : August 28, 2013, 09:56:12 PM

Sack 4 is the one that bothers me the most.  Stocker realizes he's the hot read but Freeman ignores him. A poor block by James still gives Freeman time to throw to mike will but he doesn't. And even after all that it's quite possible that Freeman could have read James position and followed his block...but he doesn't



The sacks don't bother me.  Last year those plays would of resulted in an interception.   Sometimes its better to just tuck it, and take the sack, instead of throwing it up for grabs.



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#57 : August 28, 2013, 10:59:58 PM



The sacks don't bother me.  Last year those plays would of resulted in an interception.   Sometimes its better to just tuck it, and take the sack, instead of throwing it up for grabs.
int's shouldn't even be mentioned.stocker was wide open. Mike will was wide open. Pick either of those 2 and it's either 3rd and 1 or 1st and 10. Hesitate into a sack and it's 3rd and 10.

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