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VinBucFan

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#30 : August 28, 2013, 09:43:47 AM

I don't think Dungy is senile. I think he is objective. The Bucs haven't had a pash rush in many years and they let their most proven pash rusher walk in the off season. They didn't bring in anyone else that scares opponents. On paper at least, the Bucs invested a whole lot more this year and last, on the secondary, not on the line. Yes they double dipped two years in a row on the line in the draft, but they still rank in the bottom of the league when it comes to pressure. Just because what you try doesn't work doesn't meant you stop trying.

That's a fair point except I dont think that one can say the Bucs "stopped trying," unless the only way to try is through big free agent signings.  This season over last the Bucs added the following to the d-line:

a first round DE (Clayborn)
a 2nd round DE (Bowers)
a 4th round pick (Spence)
a 4th round pick (Gholston)
a 6th round pick (Means)
a free agent (Trevor Scott)

not sure that is "stopped trying" as much as it is just "unpopular trying"


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#31 : August 28, 2013, 09:43:58 AM

Who is our DE in 2014 then? The guy that was riding the bench or was injured the last few years? Do we draft a DE in 2014? How do we answer the gapping hole at QB next year then? Do we pass on a guy like Bridgewater should he become available to us...for a DE? How do we pay Freeman should we select to keep him? Freeney would not come cheap, Already now we know we are going to have some cap casulties in 2014, especially when keeping Freeman(which is still a possibilty, else we should have traded him already).
Who is our DE in 2014 with the team NOT signing Freeney?  Freeney would have been part of a rotation, so it's not as if the younger players wouldn't have gotten any playing time had the team signed him.  And it's entirely possible that the team will have to draft a DE in 2014 anyways.

As far as how expensive he would have been, look at the contract he actually signed.  It was for two years, and had a relatively limited amount of guaranteed money.  Had he been willing to sign a reasonable similar contract with the Bucs (a non-trivial if, I freely admit), the worst case pretty much would have been him being a cap casualty next offseason.  If that amount of dead money would have broken the team's finances, well, they have bigger issues than whether or not to sign Freeney.

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#32 : August 28, 2013, 09:44:15 AM

NotDeadYet: We have one sure-shot really good defensive lineman in McCoy.

Everything else is up in air. We are far from safeguarded from another low sack/pressure season.

Winning vs justifying picks, imo.





It is a new day in TAMPA BAY!    GO BUCS!!

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#33 : August 28, 2013, 09:53:26 AM

    Dungy apparently isn't really up on the Bucs recent draft history PRIOR to the Revis signing, and has forgotten Sapp wasn't a Pro Bowl DT early in his career... And Rice just fell into their laps...



Sapp had 9 sacks in his second year and 10.5 in his 3rd season. Pro Bowl or not, he was wreaking havoc early on.

As far as "Rice Falling into their laps"....no. They went out and got him. Just like we could have went out and got Freeney. OR we could have at least tried to make a play for Elvis Dumervil when the Broncos screwed the pooch. There was also Cliff Avril, Abraham, and Osi. None of those guys are as young as Rice was when we got him, but they would have all made us a better team this year and next.


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#34 : August 28, 2013, 09:59:23 AM

    Dungy apparently isn't really up on the Bucs recent draft history PRIOR to the Revis signing, and has forgotten Sapp wasn't a Pro Bowl DT early in his career... And Rice just fell into their laps...
    Or does he not think McCoy isn't a building block like Sapp was? Yeah, then there's Bowers, who if healthy has all-star potential.
    And Clayborn was a first round pick. Again, if healthy, could develop into a very good DE.
    Amazing the things ex-players and coaches will spout once they move into the broadcast booth. Not to be taken seriously; it's just meant to generate audience response and RATINGS...  ;D

I usually agree with many of your posts but I think you are off here. Sapp had 22 sacks after three seasons which is more than all three of the guys you mentioned combined. I like the optomism but I just think these guys just aren't that good. Lets stop the mccoy sapp comparison because its apples and oranges.

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#35 : August 28, 2013, 10:03:09 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?
: August 28, 2013, 10:11:26 AM Feel Real Good

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#36 : August 28, 2013, 10:09:17 AM

Who is our DE in 2014 then? The guy that was riding the bench or was injured the last few years? Do we draft a DE in 2014? How do we answer the gapping hole at QB next year then? Do we pass on a guy like Bridgewater should he become available to us...for a DE? How do we pay Freeman should we select to keep him? Freeney would not come cheap, Already now we know we are going to have some cap casulties in 2014, especially when keeping Freeman(which is still a possibilty, else we should have traded him already).
Who is our DE in 2014 with the team NOT signing Freeney?  Freeney would have been part of a rotation, so it's not as if the younger players wouldn't have gotten any playing time had the team signed him.  And it's entirely possible that the team will have to draft a DE in 2014 anyways.

As far as how expensive he would have been, look at the contract he actually signed.  It was for two years, and had a relatively limited amount of guaranteed money.  Had he been willing to sign a reasonable similar contract with the Bucs (a non-trivial if, I freely admit), the worst case pretty much would have been him being a cap casualty next offseason.  If that amount of dead money would have broken the team's finances, well, they have bigger issues than whether or not to sign Freeney.

Yes, maybe we have to draft a DE in 2014 anyway, there is no guarantee in the other guys being good enough for 2014, its already doubtful they are good enough for 2013, lol
But sooner or later we have to play somebody else not name Freeney. I would like to know a bit more about that guy, than being excused by injuries, just having played a few snaps as a backup or just being a good looking prospect instead of knowing what he can do on the field as a starter.  Freeney does not help us finding a DE for 2014 ...or 2015, should he have 2 good years left.

When talking about salery cap in 2014 i was refering to rolled over money from 2013, which a Freeney deal would lower. Already now we are pretty tight for 2014.

I already think about who to start after Freeney is out of the league(1-2 years?)...so why not already try to find out about that guy NOW? At worst we know its not Bowers or Clay, which i consider something positive... to know who not.

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#37 : August 28, 2013, 10:16:16 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.

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#38 : August 28, 2013, 10:34:58 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.

In '14 or '15, there will be the same number of leghumpers pushing that line of thinking that are pushing it in '13 - even though the team started it's rebuild in 2009.  The rebuilding should be over.  The time to win is now.


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#39 : August 28, 2013, 10:44:49 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.

In '14 or '15, there will be the same number of leghumpers pushing that line of thinking that are pushing it in '13 - even though the team started it's rebuild in 2009.  The rebuilding should be over.  The time to win is now.

Yes, in 2009 i thought the rebuilding should have been over in 2012 or 2013, just we can no ignore how much rebuilding there was since 2009. Schiano is just responsible for one single year here, And how much Dom had to do with us going with the youngest and cheapest roster in the NFL from 2009 to 2011 is pure speculation.
 If you want to find a scape goat for why we are not any further rebuilding our team since 2009...good luck, just it wont make our team better right now. Maybe another GM will make better moves then Dom would do IN THE FUTURE...but we can not chance the past, ignoring where we are right now.

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#40 : August 28, 2013, 11:00:15 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.
By 2014 and 2015, more and more of the Bucs' young core will have expired rookie contracts and need pay raises. That will mean the older, higher paid veteran players will have to go in order to make room. The way you win Super Bowls is by having as many good players as possible working off cheap rookie deals so you can supplement them with year-to-year veterans to fill in holes. It's a lot easier to win the Super Bowl when Doug Martin is only making $2 million per year than when he gets older and starts making $8 million. Every year you have a good player on an undervalued contract, you have free money to play with.
: August 28, 2013, 11:01:57 AM Feel Real Good

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

VinBucFan

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#41 : August 28, 2013, 11:09:48 AM

The Bucs went through a rebuilding period an they are trying to "win now"  but not in the sense that some here seem to use "win now."  Maybe some think, because of the pas,t that there is only one way to "win now" and that is at a moment in time when you are completely leveraged financially and have given up many picks (ala McKay/Gruden) etc.  The Bucs are not in that position now and  so the fact that they are paying 28 year old free agents big money now is almost meaningless because they are not in the McKay/Gruden mode.  They want to win now no doubt, but they have not leveraged the entire future of the club such that if they dont win in 2013 they will face a decade of despair.  Todays high-priced 28 year old free agent can be reaplced in 3 years by another if they don't win now . . . because the team is not being run inthe McKay/Gruden mode.

Shocking, I know, but it almost appears as if the team has learned from the past . . .


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#42 : August 28, 2013, 11:10:32 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.
By 2014 and 2015, more and more of the Bucs' young core will have expired rookie contracts and need pay raises. That will mean the older, higher paid veteran players will have to go in order to make room. The way you win Super Bowls is by having as many good players as possible working off cheap rookie deals so you can supplement them with year-to-year veterans to fill in holes. It's a lot easier to win the Super Bowl when Doug Martin is only making $2 million per year than when he gets older and starts making $8 million. Every year you have a good player on an undervalued contract, you have free money to play with.

And we do this by throwing more money at guys already in the mid of their 30s? This is how we make the Revis, Goldson, Nicks, Vjax and Penn contracts worth it?

Chicken or egg?

VinBucFan

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#43 : August 28, 2013, 11:12:09 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.
By 2014 and 2015, more and more of the Bucs' young core will have expired rookie contracts and need pay raises. That will mean the older, higher paid veteran players will have to go in order to make room. The way you win Super Bowls is by having as many good players as possible working off cheap rookie deals so you can supplement them with year-to-year veterans to fill in holes. It's a lot easier to win the Super Bowl when Doug Martin is only making $2 million per year than when he gets older and starts making $8 million. Every year you have a good player on an undervalued contract, you have free money to play with.

and shocking but there is a new CBA that does what? 

what you will see is older verternas giving way to draft picks and the Bucs will continue to pay premium dollars for premium free agents . . . and probably be able to do all of that without going into near bankruptcy and without emptying the drawer of draft picks


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#44 : August 28, 2013, 11:17:45 AM

Do we really have a shot at a SB this year, to go all in this year with an expensive stopgap guy? Do we really need 1-2 more wins for such a hefty prize, or is 2013 still more about checking what we got for our run at a SB in 2014?
This season the Bucs are spending over $55 million this season on six players who are all at least 28 years old. If they're not trying to win a Super Bowl right now, just when are they? When those guys are in their mid-30s?

There are a few more seasons to be played until the are in there mid 30s.

How about 2014 or 2015, then those guys are around 30. We have not answered our question at QB yet, one option (Freeman) will cost a lot. I do not see how Freeney as the missing part getting us to a SB anytime soon though. to allow him to lower the chances of the rest maybe getting us there AFTER him.
By 2014 and 2015, more and more of the Bucs' young core will have expired rookie contracts and need pay raises. That will mean the older, higher paid veteran players will have to go in order to make room. The way you win Super Bowls is by having as many good players as possible working off cheap rookie deals so you can supplement them with year-to-year veterans to fill in holes. It's a lot easier to win the Super Bowl when Doug Martin is only making $2 million per year than when he gets older and starts making $8 million. Every year you have a good player on an undervalued contract, you have free money to play with.

And we do this by throwing more money at guys already in the mid of their 30s? This is how we make the Revis, Goldson, Nicks, Vjax and Penn contracts worth it?

Chicken or egg?
How do you think the Bucs won the Super Bowl in 2002?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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