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olafberserker

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« #345 : February 10, 2014, 11:18:35 AM »

Is the "messenger" still hurling personal attacks at posters that counter his "message" and calling facts, that blow up his "message", nonsense?

VinBucFan

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« #346 : February 10, 2014, 11:54:34 AM »

If you don't read anything else Escobar, read the intro to the study:

"In 2010, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 36 criminal homicides. And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the thousands of lives ended in gun suicides (19,392) or unintentional shootings (606) that year."

Guns have a place in society for self-defense, but that does not mean that GUN SELLERS should face no meaningful restrictions. In the context of this thread, it certainly undercuts the notion that guns have a valid basis for self-defense when a gun owner feels the need to take his "self-defense" weapon outside of the home, in a suburban movie theater  . . . during the middle of the day ..  . and yet that is the basis under which he was carrying the gun (i.e., the basis for the permit)

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

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VinBucFan

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« #347 : February 10, 2014, 11:58:38 AM »

The FBI estimates that there are about 4.5 million LEGAL gun sales*** a year in the US . ..  .that's about 450 per movie theater or, just to underscore the absurdity, for 230 justifiable homicides in 2010 (many of which occurred in a home and involved people known to each other) there were 4.5 million guns legally sold. That is almost 20,000 guns for each justifiable homicide . . . lol . . .  or even using the property statistic and "brandishing" that 67 guns per "self-protective behavior" . . . lol

the point is the NRA uses people like you to support GUN SELLERS not self-defense


** to support "LEGAL Gun sales", which is likely tied to background checks and federal license holders, there is an entire marketplace of largely unregulated private sellers, so the numbers are actually much more absurd, if you can imagine that
« : February 10, 2014, 12:04:44 PM VinBucFan »

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

olafberserker

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« #348 : February 10, 2014, 12:45:44 PM »

Yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/

utter nonsense

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« #349 : February 10, 2014, 01:09:26 PM »

Yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/

utter nonsense

It's not "utter nonsense" though, its a good and fair point, but you have to at least consider the whole article and not just the one point you want to extract from it, right? if one is being fair? 

This is the second half of the article, its pretty hard to miss:

"The new study found U.S. firearm homicides peaked in 1993 at 7.0 deaths per 100,000 people. But by 2010, the rate was 49% lower, and firearm-related violence -- assaults, robberies, sex crimes -- was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993, the study found.Those drops parallel an overall decline in violent non-fatal crime, with or without a gun, the study said. In fact, gun-related homicide rates in the late 2000s were "equal to those not seen since the early 1960s," the study found.Explanations for the drops the past 20 years aren't clear, the study said.  "Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years, and though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened," the researchers say in a summary. Despite the decline, the United States still has a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries, the study says. But America doesn't have a higher rate for all other crimes.The United States also has a higher rate of gun ownership than any other developed country, the study said."

In case anyone missed the highlighted parts:

"Those drops parallel an overall decline in violent non-fatal crime, with or without a gun, the study said."

""Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years"  (note the "and")

"though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened,"

The reason there is "no consensus" is because the reasons are myriad  - social circumstances, economy etc -- BUT .  . . . . BUT. .  as obvious as this point should be, maybe someone can explain why it is a good thing to have the MOST GUNS in the country with the most homicides for developed countries:

"Despite the decline, the United States still has a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries, the study says. But America doesn't have a higher rate for all other crimes. The United States also has a higher rate of gun ownership than any other developed country, the study said."

Why would that be reasonable? As illustrated above . . .  it is NOT for self defense   

(hint: its for MONEY)

Here you go:

"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, 467,321 persons were victims of a crime committed with a firearm in 2011.[1] In the same year, data collected by the FBI show that firearms were used in 68 percent of murders, 41 percent of robbery offenses and 21 percent of aggravated assaults nationwide. Most homicides in the United States are committed with firearms, especially handguns."

If there is no gun in this movie theater, no one dies. The justification for the gun (the implication was "self-defense" by virtue of the permit) makes no sense given the statistics. Saying there is less gun violence NOW without saying there is less violence overall is less than fair, particular given the role that guns play in violence.' This should not be that difficult a set of facts to accept, but as I mentioned there is more at play . . . fear that ANY concession equals "they will take my guns and my other rights away too" . . . a fear INTENTIONALLY driven by the NRA for the benefit of SELLERS not constitutional theorists:


Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

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« #350 : February 10, 2014, 01:11:25 PM »

As has been the point all along, the NRA is leading gun owners down a path that will lead to a  gross overreaction by the currently accepting minority. Change will come, its just a matter of the manner. 

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

spartan

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« #351 : February 10, 2014, 02:33:12 PM »


Note this:  "self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes"    "Self-protective behaviors" -- that does not just mean self-defense, that means use of a firearm in a number of ways, such as simply "brandishing," and it also goes on to include PROPERTY CRIMES . . . so "I thought someone was going to steal my bicycle and so I waved my gun at them" is included.  I don't think those types of property crimes offset the gun violence in the country, which is the part both of you guys left out, so here it is again . .

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown:  3,458.

The same entity that reported the part you two jumped on ALSO reported that in 2010 there were 210 justifiable homicides to 8275 non-justifiable gun homicides PLUS suicides PLUS unintentional shootings.

In short, the [part you two are quoting is comparing an apple to an orange and  THEN leaving out the direct comparison that was right below it . .  in BOLD and in BLUE . . .lol.  We don't know that the "victims" in the part you quote could not have just easily protected the "property" with the "self-protective behavior" of waving a baseball bat or a knife . . . but we do know that 8,275 unjustified homicides is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than the 230 justifiable homicides  . .  and that is before even accounting for suicides and unintentional shootings

Considering that "waving your gun around" is likely to end in your arrest and no longer be permitted to carry a firearm, as is shooting someone who is stealing your bike, so I doubt there is much there. Unless they mean where a firearm is used and not fired during the commission of a violent crime , I'm thinking that is a good thing and demonstrates that most gun owners are responsible and some blood thirsty cop wannabe.

I am going to take a stab here and say most "property" crime is therefore protecting oneself while a burglary/house invasin is occurring.

And, what's more the VPC is one of the leading Gun Control advocates in the country, supporting outrightbans of weapons and concealed weapons permits amongst other things.
So with all due respect, not going to hold their opinion as Golden.

But, let's say their stats are relatively accurate, we can then half it and we still have 30k "victims" with the absence of a firearm for defense.
« : February 10, 2014, 02:37:05 PM spartan »

olafberserker

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« #352 : February 10, 2014, 02:36:06 PM »

The only person peddling fear on this board is you.   End of story.

« : February 10, 2014, 02:51:49 PM olafberserker »

VinBucFan

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« #353 : February 10, 2014, 02:50:37 PM »


Note this:  "self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes"    "Self-protective behaviors" -- that does not just mean self-defense, that means use of a firearm in a number of ways, such as simply "brandishing," and it also goes on to include PROPERTY CRIMES . . . so "I thought someone was going to steal my bicycle and so I waved my gun at them" is included.  I don't think those types of property crimes offset the gun violence in the country, which is the part both of you guys left out, so here it is again . .

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown:  3,458.

The same entity that reported the part you two jumped on ALSO reported that in 2010 there were 210 justifiable homicides to 8275 non-justifiable gun homicides PLUS suicides PLUS unintentional shootings.

In short, the [part you two are quoting is comparing an apple to an orange and  THEN leaving out the direct comparison that was right below it . .  in BOLD and in BLUE . . .lol.  We don't know that the "victims" in the part you quote could not have just easily protected the "property" with the "self-protective behavior" of waving a baseball bat or a knife . . . but we do know that 8,275 unjustified homicides is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than the 230 justifiable homicides  . .  and that is before even accounting for suicides and unintentional shootings

Considering that "waving your gun around" is likely to end in your arrest and no longer be permitted to carry a firearm, as is shooting someone who is stealing your bike, so I doubt there is much there. Unless they mean where a firearm is used and not fired during the commission of a violent crime , I'm thinking that is a good thing and demonstrates that most gun owners are responsible and some blood thirsty cop wannabe.

I am going to take a stab here and say most "property" crime is therefore protecting oneself while a burglary/house invasin is occurring.

And, what's more the VPC is one of the leading Gun Control advocates in the country, supporting outrightbans of weapons and concealed weapons permits amongst other things.
So with all due respect, not going to hold their opinion as Golden.

But, let's say their stats are relatively accurate, we can then half it and we still have 30k "victims" with the absence of a firearm for defense.

I think you are missing the point, but it could just be that I misunderstand your point or the point in general.  My point was that the number that you and Escobar seized include property crime.  Even I mistakenly assumed that meant property crimes where someone used a gun to stop the property crime, but perhaps only a small number of those involved shooting the weapon.  It's not that, here it is from the report:

Self-Protective Behavior
Offered no resistance 12,987,300 43.8 10,162,000 12.0
Threatened or attacked with a firearm 235,700 0.8 103,000 0.1
Threatened or attacked with other weapon 391,100 1.3 38,200 –
Threatened or attacked without a weapon 6,552,900 22.1 421,300 0.5
Nonconfrontational tactics–yelled, ran, or argued 7,768,700 26.2 1,187,100 1.4
Other reaction 1,641,300 5.5 223,400 0.3
Unknown reaction 41,300 0.1 12,200* –
Property crime–victim not present ~ ~ 72,348,200 85.6

So the "self-protective behavior" of use of a firearm IN ANY WAY AT ALL . . .was only .01 percent of the "self-protective behaviors," of which the largest is just not being there.  So, in other words, my argument for using the homicide statistic apples to apples is even more accurate, right?  The number you cited included events that had very little  to do with guns, per the chart above, which is right here in the report:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf

Now, I understand that this is generally an anti-gun organization BUT the entire point of the analysis is to use accepted national source statistics (FBI) as opposed to the NRA's use of a limited phone survey by one professor for the 2 million "self-defense" claim. Even if you take the position that the VPC has an agenda, its pretty impossible to discredit the methodology and, frankly, impossible compared to bogus way the NRA cooked up the number.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

deadzone

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« #354 : February 10, 2014, 04:08:09 PM »

Just finished re-loading another 10,000 rds.......That's like a case of beer per 1,000 rds......................Always Be Ready....

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« #355 : February 10, 2014, 04:19:44 PM »

Just finished re-loading another 10,000 rds.......That's like a case of beer per 1,000 rds......................Always Be Ready....

especially with a birthday party ahead!

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

spartan

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« #356 : February 10, 2014, 07:03:15 PM »


Note this:  "self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes"    "Self-protective behaviors" -- that does not just mean self-defense, that means use of a firearm in a number of ways, such as simply "brandishing," and it also goes on to include PROPERTY CRIMES . . . so "I thought someone was going to steal my bicycle and so I waved my gun at them" is included.  I don't think those types of property crimes offset the gun violence in the country, which is the part both of you guys left out, so here it is again . .

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown:  3,458.

The same entity that reported the part you two jumped on ALSO reported that in 2010 there were 210 justifiable homicides to 8275 non-justifiable gun homicides PLUS suicides PLUS unintentional shootings.

In short, the [part you two are quoting is comparing an apple to an orange and  THEN leaving out the direct comparison that was right below it . .  in BOLD and in BLUE . . .lol.  We don't know that the "victims" in the part you quote could not have just easily protected the "property" with the "self-protective behavior" of waving a baseball bat or a knife . . . but we do know that 8,275 unjustified homicides is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than the 230 justifiable homicides  . .  and that is before even accounting for suicides and unintentional shootings

Considering that "waving your gun around" is likely to end in your arrest and no longer be permitted to carry a firearm, as is shooting someone who is stealing your bike, so I doubt there is much there. Unless they mean where a firearm is used and not fired during the commission of a violent crime , I'm thinking that is a good thing and demonstrates that most gun owners are responsible and some blood thirsty cop wannabe.

I am going to take a stab here and say most "property" crime is therefore protecting oneself while a burglary/house invasin is occurring.

And, what's more the VPC is one of the leading Gun Control advocates in the country, supporting outrightbans of weapons and concealed weapons permits amongst other things.
So with all due respect, not going to hold their opinion as Golden.

But, let's say their stats are relatively accurate, we can then half it and we still have 30k "victims" with the absence of a firearm for defense.

I think you are missing the point, but it could just be that I misunderstand your point or the point in general.  My point was that the number that you and Escobar seized include property crime.  Even I mistakenly assumed that meant property crimes where someone used a gun to stop the property crime, but perhaps only a small number of those involved shooting the weapon.  It's not that, here it is from the report:

Self-Protective Behavior
Offered no resistance 12,987,300 43.8 10,162,000 12.0
Threatened or attacked with a firearm 235,700 0.8 103,000 0.1
Threatened or attacked with other weapon 391,100 1.3 38,200 –
Threatened or attacked without a weapon 6,552,900 22.1 421,300 0.5
Nonconfrontational tactics–yelled, ran, or argued 7,768,700 26.2 1,187,100 1.4
Other reaction 1,641,300 5.5 223,400 0.3
Unknown reaction 41,300 0.1 12,200* –
Property crime–victim not present ~ ~ 72,348,200 85.6

So the "self-protective behavior" of use of a firearm IN ANY WAY AT ALL . . .was only .01 percent of the "self-protective behaviors," of which the largest is just not being there.  So, in other words, my argument for using the homicide statistic apples to apples is even more accurate, right?  The number you cited included events that had very little  to do with guns, per the chart above, which is right here in the report:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf

Now, I understand that this is generally an anti-gun organization BUT the entire point of the analysis is to use accepted national source statistics (FBI) as opposed to the NRA's use of a limited phone survey by one professor for the 2 million "self-defense" claim. Even if you take the position that the VPC has an agenda, its pretty impossible to discredit the methodology and, frankly, impossible compared to bogus way the NRA cooked up the number.

According to those statistics, working on the raw data, citizens defended themselves or their property with a firearm 338, 700 times in a 5 year period. That is on average almost 68,000 times a year. If they had not, would they have been raped, murdered, punched, shoved, spat on; we don't know. But that is 68000 victims of violent crimes MORE than we would have seen had they not had a firearm. So if you ban firearms, for each gun (shooting) victim you would create 8 new victims (statistically speaking). And that is not taking into the (proven) fact that criminals are emboldened when they know the victim cannot defend themselves.

So, based on THIS report, are you willing to create 8 new victims of violent crime to save 1 victim of gun violence?

And this taken from a report printed by an Organization that is using it to promote gun control.

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« #357 : February 10, 2014, 07:06:44 PM »

I can feel the hatred in this thread. It gives you focus.

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« #358 : February 10, 2014, 07:34:44 PM »

I have no hatred.

In fact I like going back with Vin on this. The reason being that it forces me to look at, reinforce and refresh why it is I like guns, and why I support the 2nd Amendment. And, what is more, if he or someone else would actually come up with a good proposal with regards to guns I would be in a better position to recognize it. Contrary to  that he might think I am in the "just say no" camp.

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« #359 : February 10, 2014, 07:59:45 PM »

I have no hatred.

In fact I like going back with Vin on this. The reason being that it forces me to look at, reinforce and refresh why it is I like guns, and why I support the 2nd Amendment. And, what is more, if he or someone else would actually come up with a good proposal with regards to guns I would be in a better position to recognize it. Contrary to  that he might think I am in the "just say no" camp.

I wasn't referring to you, just the thread as a whole and the ATTITUDES expressed in some of the users here, not the users themselves.
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