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olafberserker

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« #330 : February 09, 2014, 10:24:01 AM »

Now suburban Targets, that's a place you need to take a gun to .....

https://www.pewterreport.com/Boards/index.php/topic,1293272.msg2096657.html#msg2096657

Bucfucious

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« #331 : February 09, 2014, 12:45:54 PM »

There are too many meat thermometers in this country. Can anyone disagree that if there were less meat thermometers there would be less meat thermometer violence?

Biggs3535

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« #332 : February 09, 2014, 01:46:36 PM »

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/history-of-violence-in-movie-theaters-dark-knight-rises-353769

a man complained about a woman in the theater who was talking on her cell phone. The woman left with two men, one of whom returned minutes later and stabbed the complainer in the neck with a meat thermometer

It's those damn meat thermometer lobby's in Washington.  They'll just keep throwing money at this national nightmare.


Bucfucious

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« #333 : February 09, 2014, 02:17:31 PM »

Yet more evidence. How long must we endure before something is done? Think about the children. WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!!!?

Oh, the humanity.


http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/01/west_dallas_crack-smoking_sess.php

The Anomaly

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« #334 : February 09, 2014, 02:24:14 PM »

I'll say again.  I don't mind guns or people owning them but having that SYG law really is a bad idea.  The guy in the movie theater is making that familiar claim..."I felt my life was in danger"...give us all a break.  Anyone could feel that anytime.  Problem is the perception is not reality.  Need to really come down hard on people trying to exercise this ridiculous fear defense. 

spartan

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« #335 : February 09, 2014, 04:32:55 PM »


The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.


Let's say you are right, that's still 6 x the number of people killed with a firearm. So for every victim you "save" by getting rid of firearms, you create 6.

note that it say property crime too, read further down, but here's the larger point:

a 71 year old former cop has a CWP presumably for "self defense."  There should be no REASONABLE reason to think you need a gun for defense in a suburban movie theater at an afternoon movie.

That makes no attempt to answer the question at all.

CalcuttaRain

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« #336 : February 10, 2014, 09:28:43 AM »


The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.


Let's say you are right, that's still 6 x the number of people killed with a firearm. So for every victim you "save" by getting rid of firearms, you create 6.

note that it say property crime too, read further down, but here's the larger point:

a 71 year old former cop has a CWP presumably for "self defense."  There should be no REASONABLE reason to think you need a gun for defense in a suburban movie theater at an afternoon movie.

That makes no attempt to answer the question at all.

there was no question, unless I am missing something?

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

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CalcuttaRain

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« #337 : February 10, 2014, 09:29:32 AM »

This is the point where the usual pro gun guys will really go off with the nonsense . .. .  .

lmao, have fun

page 21  . . .lol

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Escobar06

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« #338 : February 10, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »


The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.


Let's say you are right, that's still 6 x the number of people killed with a firearm. So for every victim you "save" by getting rid of firearms, you create 6.

note that it say property crime too, read further down, but here's the larger point:

a 71 year old former cop has a CWP presumably for "self defense."  There should be no REASONABLE reason to think you need a gun for defense in a suburban movie theater at an afternoon movie.

That makes no attempt to answer the question at all.

there was no question, unless I am missing something?


I think the obvious question was "How does creating six times the number of victims count as a viable solution?"

The answer is an obvious "it doesn't", but we all know you aren't going to admit to that.


CalcuttaRain

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« #339 : February 10, 2014, 09:56:32 AM »


The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.


Let's say you are right, that's still 6 x the number of people killed with a firearm. So for every victim you "save" by getting rid of firearms, you create 6.

note that it say property crime too, read further down, but here's the larger point:

a 71 year old former cop has a CWP presumably for "self defense."  There should be no REASONABLE reason to think you need a gun for defense in a suburban movie theater at an afternoon movie.

That makes no attempt to answer the question at all.

there was no question, unless I am missing something?


I think the obvious question was "How does creating six times the number of victims count as a viable solution?"

The answer is an obvious "it doesn't", but we all know you aren't going to admit to that.

 I did respond to that, I said Spartan was reading only part of the quote and not accounting for the actual words "property".  Here it is again:

"The National Rifle Association maintains a blog called The Armed Citizen, which highlights defensive gun use. The latest entry, from April 9, describes three incidents: Two from 2013 and one archival example from 1969. It’s not hard to see what the NRA’s getting at, but just in case, a sidebar on the site states: “Studies indicate that firearms are used over 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances.” In other words, as Wayne LaPierre put it after Newtown, “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

That’s almost as catchy as “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” The problem is: The 2 million figure — often inflated to 2.5 million in N.R.A. literature — is bogus. Defensive gun use is actually quite rare.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.

Readers can judge for themselves whether the V.P.C. or the N.R.A. is likely to have better numbers. The V.P.C. used data from the National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The N.R.A.’s estimate is the result of a telephone survey conducted by a Florida State University criminologist.

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown:  3,458.

As the V.P.C. paper states, “guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes.”

[/quote]

Note this:  "self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes"    "Self-protective behaviors" -- that does not just mean self-defense, that means use of a firearm in a number of ways, such as simply "brandishing," and it also goes on to include PROPERTY CRIMES . . . so "I thought someone was going to steal my bicycle and so I waved my gun at them" is included.  I don't think those types of property crimes offset the gun violence in the country, which is the part both of you guys left out, so here it is again . .

The V.P.C. also found that in 2010 “there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm” reported to the F.B.I.’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Compare that with the number of criminal gun homicides in the same year: 8,275. (That’s not counting gun suicides or unintentional shootings.) Or compare it with the number of Americans killed by guns since Newtown:  3,458.

The same entity that reported the part you two jumped on ALSO reported that in 2010 there were 210 justifiable homicides to 8275 non-justifiable gun homicides PLUS suicides PLUS unintentional shootings.

In short, the [part you two are quoting is comparing an apple to an orange and  THEN leaving out the direct comparison that was right below it . .  in BOLD and in BLUE . . .lol.  We don't know that the "victims" in the part you quote could not have just easily protected the "property" with the "self-protective behavior" of waving a baseball bat or a knife . . . but we do know that 8,275 unjustified homicides is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than the 230 justifiable homicides  . .  and that is before even accounting for suicides and unintentional shootings

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Escobar06

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« #340 : February 10, 2014, 10:32:20 AM »

To say we don't know if another weapon would have deterred a crime attempt is absurd, considering you don't know if it would have. What happened happened, let the statistic speak for itself. You're comparing the legal use of a gun to KILL a criminal because that number is much smaller than overall crime attempts simply prevented with a gun. 230 sounds a lot better than 67,740, right? We're not ignoring the information in the article, you are. The point is that guns deter crime more than they cause crime, the article you posted PROVES that.

CalcuttaRain

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« #341 : February 10, 2014, 10:52:05 AM »

To say we don't know if another weapon would have deterred a crime attempt is absurd, considering you don't know if it would have.

Huh? don't say "we don't know" when we don't know?

What happened happened, let the statistic speak for itself. You're comparing the legal use of a gun to KILL a criminal because that number is much smaller than overall crime attempts simply prevented with a gun. 230 sounds a lot better than 67,740, right? We're not ignoring the information in the article, you are. The point is that guns deter crime more than they cause crime, the article you posted PROVES that.

I think you might want to read again because this comment ^^^ indicates to me that you misunderstand the article and my point. I never compared 230 to 67,740, I compared it, apple to apple, which was the 8,000 number.  You're coming in late, but the comment that started the discussion was about SELF-DEFENSE, not defense of property. Again, you may need to go back and read the discussion and the article again.

EDIT:  Here, this might help you understand what you're missing, here is the rest of the report:

"For victims of both attempted and completed violent crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.8 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm. For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 29,618,300 victims of attempted or completed violent crimes. During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used or whether it was fired or not. The number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers who use their firearms in self-defense. "

(note the caveat at the end)
« : February 10, 2014, 10:56:07 AM VinBucFan »

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Escobar06

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« #342 : February 10, 2014, 10:56:50 AM »

Nope, I don't need to read anything again. Your own article proves guns stop crime more than they cause it. That's the only relevant piece of information, not that it wasn't already known by those with common sense.

The more we restrict guns, the more crime will go up. You can count on that. Or, in your case, ignore it.

I read the other day that the theater Holmes chose, in Aurora, was the only theater in the area that banned guns. Why do you suppose he chose that theater?

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« #343 : February 10, 2014, 10:57:25 AM »

Here's the property portion you are focused on (in summary):

Firearms are Rarely Used in Self-Defense by Victims of Attempted or Completed Property Crimes

For victims of both attempted and completed property crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.1 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm. For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 84,495,500 victims of attempted or completed property crimes. During this same five-year period, only 103,000 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used, whether it was fired or not, or whether the use of a gun would even be a legal response to the property crime. And that number as well may also include off-duty law enforcement officers. In comparison, new data from the Department of Justice shows that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

CalcuttaRain

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« #344 : February 10, 2014, 11:00:08 AM »

Nope, I don't need to read anything again. Your own article proves guns stop crime more than they cause it.

you mean the EXCERPT I posted , I guess.  I guess you have not read the article. Here's the actual article for you to read:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf


Here's the full summary:

"Washington, DC—“Guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes” according to the new Violence Policy Center (VPC) report Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use (http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf). The report analyzes national data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program’s Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR) and the Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).

VPC Executive Director and study co-author Josh Sugarmann states, “The idea that ordinary citizens need access to extraordinary firepower in order to adequately defend themselves against criminals has become the default argument against a federal assault weapons ban and limits on high-capacity ammunition magazines. This new data exposes the fallacy of such arguments and clearly demonstrates that the frequency with which guns are used in self-defense in the real world has nothing in common with pro-gun assertions that firearms are used millions of times each year to kill criminals or stop crimes. In fact, a gun is far more likely to be stolen than used in self-defense.”

Key findings of the 19-page study include the following.

Firearm Justifiable Homicides by Private Citizens Occur Rarely

In 2010, across the nation there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the FBI. That same year, there were 8,275 criminal gun homicides. Using these numbers, in 2010, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 36 criminal homicides. This ratio does not take into account the thousands of lives ended in gun suicides (19,392) or unintentional shootings (606) that year.


Firearms are Rarely Used in Self-Defense by Victims of Attempted or Completed Violent Crimes

For victims of both attempted and completed violent crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.8 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm. For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 29,618,300 victims of attempted or completed violent crimes. During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used or whether it was fired or not. The number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers who use their firearms in self-defense.


Firearms are Rarely Used in Self-Defense by Victims of Attempted or Completed Property Crimes

For victims of both attempted and completed property crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.1 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm. For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 84,495,500 victims of attempted or completed property crimes. During this same five-year period, only 103,000 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used, whether it was fired or not, or whether the use of a gun would even be a legal response to the property crime. And that number as well may also include off-duty law enforcement officers. In comparison, new data from the Department of Justice shows that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.


Total Number of Actual Self-Defense Firearm Uses are Only a Small Fraction of Pro-Gun Claims

According to the NCVS, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self-defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft-repeated claim that firearms are used in self-defense 2.5 million times a year).


More than a Third of Persons Shot and Killed in Justifiable Homicides in 2010 Were Known to the Shooter

In 2010, 35.7 percent (82 of 230) of persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter, 56.5 percent (130) were strangers, and in 7.8 percent (18) the relationship was unknown.

Additional information in the VPC report includes sex, race, relationship, and weapon used in justifiable homicides for 2010 and the five-year period 2006 to 2010. The study also includes justifiable homicides by state for the years 2006 to 2010.

The study concludes, “The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.”



(my guess is you will still maintain your position after reading what you have not read previously, clearly.  That goes to my larger point, which is that some pro-gun people are immune to facts because the facts are counter to the fear-driven point of view, fear that any restriction on guns is a step to taking them all way, along with taking away many other rights. I don't care if you or others have that point of view, but you should at least acknowledge that is the REAL issue rather than just ignoring the facts)
« : February 10, 2014, 11:03:43 AM VinBucFan »

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center
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