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OneTruth

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« #15 : June 19, 2014, 06:26:25 AM »

Escobar you said

Anyone can say something ...but God will know what their faith is?

Freewill is a fact. Abraham was counted righteous and faithful after he raised the knife ~ not when he had considered listening to God. Everyone thinks good and bad thoughts. Doing it makes you good or bad.

For instance if I tell you a certain stock will increase and you notice that I haven't bought any...would you believe that I had any faith in what I was telling you. On the other hand if I said the stock was going up and I put all my money into it....what does that say about how confident I am in what I am telling you. And further, if I put half my funds into the stock what does that say about the kind of faith I have in it?

What you DO is your faith...and it is the extant of your faith that is discovered by your actions.

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« #16 : June 19, 2014, 08:18:59 AM »

Escobar you said

Anyone can say something ...but God will know what their faith is?

Freewill is a fact. Abraham was counted righteous and faithful after he raised the knife ~ not when he had considered listening to God. Everyone thinks good and bad thoughts. Doing it makes you good or bad.

For instance if I tell you a certain stock will increase and you notice that I haven't bought any...would you believe that I had any faith in what I was telling you. On the other hand if I said the stock was going up and I put all my money into it....what does that say about how confident I am in what I am telling you. And further, if I put half my funds into the stock what does that say about the kind of faith I have in it?

What you DO is your faith...and it is the extant of your faith that is discovered by your actions.

The Bible is full of scripture making it crystal clear that it's what you believe, not what you do, that leads to salvation. Are you truly attempting to dispute that? I gave you the most straight forward verse in a previous post, do you really need me to post more? The entire point of salvation is to be able to co-exist with God. God can't be around sin, he won't be around sin. Because Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, God set in motion a plan that would save those WHO BELIEVE from their sins. His plan, of course, was becoming man (yes I know you don't believe that) and dying on the cross. Jesus (God) became the perfect sacrifice. By believing in him, that he was resurrected and will come again, you're believing in the plan set in motion by God himself to save humanity. Nowhere in the Bible does it say sin can be forgiven, or removed, by your works. Because that is the entire point of God's plan, to remove our sin so that we can exist where God exists, and because nowhere in the Bible does it state that your works will in any way atone for your sins, it's very clear that your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

Your works aren't completely meaningless, obviously, as they come in to play at the Bema judgment. Since I know you're going to bring it up eventually, here ya go:

http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS

And I'll say it again, if it's what we DO that saves us, what purpose did Jesus serve? Honestly, think that over and attempt to come up with an answer that's supported with scripture. Jesus dying on the cross would be completely irrelevant if OUR actions were what mattered. That's just plain old common sense, and it just so happens to be fully supported by scripture.

Anyone can do something, even if they hate doing it or don't want to do it. Not everyone can believe something, there's no dancing around that. You either truly believe in something, or you don't. God will know if your belief is sincere, and THAT is why it's what you believe not what you do.

This verse puts things in perfect perspective:

Romans 11: 6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Supported by:

Ephesians 2: 8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Grace means something you didn't earn, something you don't deserve. If someone does something for you through grace, they are doing something as a favor, an act of goodwill. The first verse I posted means that if your works lead to salvation, it couldn't be by grace also. Your works lead to something earned, but an offer extended through grace isn't about what you earn, in fact it's the exact opposite of that, it's about what you didn't earn.

In other words, if you're saved through works, Ephesians 2:8-9 is a lie. God can't lie, and the Bible is God's word. God specifically states that you are saved through grace, any thought of earning (working) your way to salvation renders God's grace meaningless.

Some more verses:

Galatians 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 2:21 (the point I've been making for several posts now)

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

« : June 19, 2014, 08:49:40 AM Escobar06 »

OneTruth

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« #17 : June 20, 2014, 05:29:43 AM »

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26
« : June 20, 2014, 05:32:37 AM OneTruth »

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« #18 : June 20, 2014, 05:14:00 PM »

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26


Did you even read the explanation of that in the link I posted? Here's a hint, tell me if you can spot the two key words in this scripture

James 2:14

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

This is why I only trust the KJV, changing one word, profit to good, changes the entire meaning of the scripture. Profit in this scripture is talking about your rewards at the Bema judgment, brethren is your clue that he's talking to those who are already saved. I posted an explanation of this.

The scriptures you posted are from one book and it's always misinterpreted. The scriptures I posted are from many different books, a recurring them you'll find throughout the entire Bible, both OT and NT. We know the scriptures you posted don't mean what you believe they do, because as was proven in my previous post if they did mean what you're claiming, many other parts of the Bible are lies. We both know that's not true. Read the explanation I provided a link for, and you'll understand more clearly what I'm talking about.
« : June 20, 2014, 05:21:48 PM Escobar06 »

ONEBIGDADDY

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« #19 : June 21, 2014, 09:54:18 PM »

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Had to fix it by quoting in the proper scripture....OBD

James 2:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26


ONEBIGDADDY

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« #20 : June 21, 2014, 09:55:39 PM »

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26


Did you even read the explanation of that in the link I posted? Here's a hint, tell me if you can spot the two key words in this scripture

James 2:14

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

This is why I only trust the KJV, changing one word, profit to good, changes the entire meaning of the scripture. Profit in this scripture is talking about your rewards at the Bema judgment, brethren is your clue that he's talking to those who are already saved. I posted an explanation of this.

The scriptures you posted are from one book and it's always misinterpreted. The scriptures I posted are from many different books, a recurring them you'll find throughout the entire Bible, both OT and NT. We know the scriptures you posted don't mean what you believe they do, because as was proven in my previous post if they did mean what you're claiming, many other parts of the Bible are lies. We both know that's not true. Read the explanation I provided a link for, and you'll understand more clearly what I'm talking about.
You're correct. Good post on the scriptures...OBD


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« #21 : June 21, 2014, 10:07:26 PM »

Thomas....Why is it that you speak as though your the Authority figure as "it is written"?. For a man to think of himself as the end all be all and give your translations that have been watered down and paraphrased shows that you can't grasp the King James Version of the Bible. How is it that you come in stir the pot and then refuse to even acknowledge that a "Brother in the Lord" could actually speak some truth and shed a bit more light on the subject that your trying to expound with a lukewarm delivery? ...OBD


Escobar06

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« #22 : June 21, 2014, 11:07:31 PM »

OBD, you knew it was coming:

2 Timothy 4:1-4

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



I don't think it's intentional most times, people just don't want to put the time in to read and find out what the Bible is actually saying. That's why you hear things repeated like "God helps those who help themselves", and other false quotes. Many people just repeat what they know to be popular sayings, without ever realizing it doesn't even exist in the Bible.

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« #23 : June 22, 2014, 07:45:14 AM »

OBD, you knew it was coming:

2 Timothy 4:1-4

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



I don't think it's intentional most times, people just don't want to put the time in to read and find out what the Bible is actually saying. That's why you hear things repeated like "God helps those who help themselves", and other false quotes. Many people just repeat what they know to be popular sayings, without ever realizing it doesn't even exist in the Bible.
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
That scripture alone will be the hardest for thomas to understand. I hope he doesn't have too many scratch marks on his ears. One other thing Thomas must remember whenever you have one finger pointing outward at people you have more fingers pointing back at you on the same hand...OBD


OneTruth

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« #24 : June 22, 2014, 05:15:01 PM »

unsound doctrine of men...straight from the Luciferian Jesuits I am sure. Jehovah is the same person as Jesus as is the holy spirit. Come now. This is absurd. Jesus was alive with Jehovah and fighting with Satan before he was born from a virgin. He appears separately from Jehovah after His resurrection, and in addition while he was on earth God spoke from heaven. Jesus admitted he was sent and did not come of his own will. etc etc etc.

And you want to bang me over the head with this? And in the same vein faith is separate from works. This again is high minded confusion...straight from Satan. You will be judged on what you have said and done. Not what you say you believe. As I illustrated in a previous post...a person acts according to his or her beliefs. The more you believe something the more you will ACT in accordance with that belief. Belief = faith. Now stop twisting words and concepts to confuse the people and lord it over them with your Luciferian doctrine of lies.

You quoted Timothy correctly and really, you should look in the mirror when reading that sir.

Im not posting these things to spark debate. I am speaking with you sincerely truthfully using my God given mind as a puzzle solver.

Don't try to come into my thread speaking lies of the Devil as truths from God. The great turning away happened almost from the very beginning....The Trinity...makes me laugh. Faith is separate from actions....HA, and Christmas is Jesus birthday, Easter is when he rose from the grave, Halloween is a harmless kids holiday, The Vatican is here to lead us to God, Enoch isn't part of the Holy Cannon....tell me more OBD. Im so wanting to hear your rebuke....smh
« : June 22, 2014, 05:20:41 PM OneTruth »

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« #25 : June 22, 2014, 05:49:20 PM »

OT, you're correct when you say we'll be judged on what we have said and done. I never said we wouldn't. What I said is that what we've said and done won't lead to salvation, and that's the truth. I'm not sure how you can read the verses I posted (and there are many more, if you need to see them just ask) about the subject and come to any other conclusion. Your entire argument hinges on James, and that's widely known as the most misinterpreted book in the Bible, maybe next to verses that deal with judging others. The fact that verses can be pulled from anywhere in the Bible, not just one book, that state it's not about your works but your faith and God's grace that leads to salvation should be enough to open your eyes. It is literally impossible to read some of the verses I posted and come to any other conclusion. If, on the other hand, you are correct in your interpretation of James, this proves the entire Bible is a lie and this debate is meaningless anyway. Thankfully, you are not correct.

There is no possible way to reconcile your interpretation of James with the verses I posted. If you're up to it, please list each verse I posted on the matter, and explain how it supports your interpretation of James.

Start here with the most obvious one:

Ephesians 2: 8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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« #26 : June 22, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »

ok, read verse 10 of that same chapter and book.

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Additionally read the beginning of that chapter and Paul writes ...we used to be slaves to our flesh....but we DO THESE THINGS NO MORE...

« : June 22, 2014, 06:17:43 PM OneTruth »

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« #27 : June 22, 2014, 06:16:36 PM »

where we disagree, I think, is that the "saved by grace and not works" means something different to us both.

I see it as a simple way to keep Christians humble, not becoming arrogant like the apostles misstep when Jesus rebuked them..."whoever is least among you will be greatest, etc etc"

So what Paul says is ...yes we need to do the right thing and we should try to cultivate a desire of it in our hearts...even though our hearts are wicked by nature...but nobody may brag about because if God didn't send His son to redeem us nobody would be going anywhere except back into the ground.

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« #28 : June 22, 2014, 06:54:16 PM »

OT, Jesus spoke to me last night. He said you're wrong :0


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« #29 : June 22, 2014, 06:57:18 PM »

Right, we're supposed to do good works, but that doesn't mean those works lead to salvation. Rewards at the Bema judgment only matter if you GET to the Bema judgment. There's only one way to do that, and I've posted many verses that clearly show the way. As I said, if your interpretation of James is correct, the rest of the Bible is a lie. There's just no other way to look at it. If you're unwilling to re-post the verses I listed with an explanation as to how they fit your interpretation, there's not much left to discuss. The Bible talks about works and it talks about faith, it's made very clear which of those leads to salvation. "Not of your works, lest anyone should boast". It CANNOT be any more clear.
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