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Revis and Butt-head

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#15 : June 27, 2014, 10:56:44 PM

"No, I assume atheists are fools lead by their own ego than anything else. Typically that's correct, and I believe it is in this case as well.  What rebuttal are you looking for? You single out my post, attack Christianity, and believe you're owed some kind of explanation as to why God does the things that he does? I don't owe you anything, neither does God."

Who is attacking who?  You made a comment talking about how superior Christianity is to Islam and I stated while Muslims are much more violent the two religions are quite similar.  You then said I sadly believed that statement and I gave some examples of how they are similar.  You obviously didn't like those examples and instead of refuting my claim you went to personally insulting and patronizing me.  You then stereotype me into a particular political belief and say I worship Obama.  Then you go on to say all atheists are fools and have huge egos.  But yet you say I am the one on the attack.

You claimed Islam is misogynistic and I said that Christianity is as well so while I don't believe I am owed a response by you it is a discussion board and those tend to be for discussing things so if you respond to my post I would have liked you to actually respond to that claim instead of making personal attacks.

"The information you need to come to a logical conclusion exists, you've decided to twist it into something evil."

No, there isn't any proof that your god exists and I didn't twist anything.

"This means that any kind of response I give you will also be twisted into something evil, yet you thought I was stupid enough to play your little game?"

It's not my little game and I am not twisting anything.  It is a discussion and I was interested in hearing your response.

"Atheists do this all the time, they seek out Christian topics and then complain about them. If you don't believe God exists, why do you spend any amount of time on this topic?"

I do admit to enjoying talking about religion to different people about their religion and such.  I am interested in knowing how the everything exists like a lot of other people.  I have family and friends who I talk to about their faith and while I try to be civil they do sometimes become more heated debates.  While quite a few atheists like the debate I would say most atheists just don't care to talk about religion at all.

"The answer is because you know God does exist, you just hate him. You hate the idea of having to be held accountable for the things you do and say. God will judge you so in return you judge God, that's how you "get even". "

Here we go again; more Atheist stereotypes pushed by Christians.  No I do not know your god exists nor do I hate him.  I would say it is pretty irrational to hate something you don't believe exists.  You can have opinions on characters in fiction that you don't believe in.  That's like saying that since you criticize Darth Vader for his actions, you must know that he exists and hate him.

I don't hate the idea of being held accountable for what I do or say.  I know that other people will hold me accountable for those things.  I don't like the fact, however, that your god can hold be accountable for what I think.  Just not a fan of the thought police.

"Satan is toying with you, and one day you'll regret letting him get away with it. Except that day won't be a day at all, it will be eternity, and you'll have only yourself to blame."

Oh, yes.  Because I need evidence to believe a claim and think things through logically I am being toyed by Beelzebub.  If I did die and found myself in front of Yahweh the only thing I would ask him is why would you base giving a person eternal life or eternal damnation on whether they believe in him while giving absolutely no evidence of him existing.

"God knows everything that has ever happened or will happen, if you change your morning routine by leaving for work 5 minutes later than usual, God knows the domino effect that will have down to the last detail. The point is that, given any situation, God knows every single thing about that situation, you know very little, or nothing, about it. So what it really boils down to is you don't like not knowing everything."

Everything you just said is completely based off your faith and has no evidence.  I can replace God with any other deity ever believed to exist and it would work just as well.  By the way if your god knows everything that will happen in the first place, why did he create beelzebub?  You claim the devil causes a lot of havoc nowadays.

"If you don't understand why Pharaoh's son was killed, or why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, or sent a great flood, then to you it's evil. You want to have the knowledge that only God has, and because you don't, you reject him. I'm 100 percent confident that every single thing God does is done perfectly, and for good reason. I'm not foolish enough to judge God simply because I don't understand, I CAN'T understand, why something happened."

Nice cop out.  We are all just too stupid to understand the morality of genocide and slavery and the killing of children.  You are right, though.  I can't comprehend how anyone could find that moral or just.  You think that's O.K then fine.  We will have to agree to disagree on that.

"Like I said, it comes down to ego. God doesn't run his plans by you first, so you just won't have any of it. If that's how you want to go about things, have at it, but you will regret that decision one day."

If your god believes I deserve eternal damnation for critically looking the bible and needing evidence to believe in him then so be it.
: June 27, 2014, 10:59:04 PM Revis and Butt-head


Escobar06

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#16 : June 28, 2014, 02:28:43 AM

"If I did die and found myself in front of Yahweh the only thing I would ask him is why would you base giving a person eternal life or eternal damnation on whether they believe in him while giving absolutely no evidence of him existing."


Since this is the basis of your entire argument, it's the only thing worth responding to. Well, other than you saying you don't hate someone that doesn't exist, only to call that someone a misogynist and a homophobe. Interesting. Also, you didn't say "other than Muslims being much more violent, it's the same thing". The tiny little part about Muslims being much more violent wasn't included in your initial unprovoked attack on Christianity. You're adding it in now because you're starting to realize that what you said was very stupid. Good, a little honesty.

The only thing to say is that the Bible presents plenty of evidence that Jesus was/is who he claimed. Anyone can simply refuse to believe anything the Bible says, and through free will you've chosen that route. Again, this leads back to your desire to be God-like and have the answers to everything. You don't see that connection apparently, but it's there, and it's obvious. You can't even begin to understand what goes in to everything God does, or has done. Yet even knowing this to be fact, you still pretend to have all the answers. "To me, as a human, this looks a certain way, therefore my opinion trumps all and it IS that way". This is basically your line of thought, and it's absurd. You aren't the authority on anything, step one is you realizing that. God created everything that exists, he sets the rules not you or anyone else. Calling God a homophobe is beyond ludicrous, you're telling the creator of everything their view on how things should be is wrong, and your view is right. Again, it all goes straight back to ego. To get around the "being judged" aspect, you simply tell yourself that God doesn't exist in the first place, therefore OF COURSE your own personal views are correct. Who's to say otherwise, right?

Again, satan is having a field day with you. He's using your ego and arrogance against you with great success. Most likely he planted the seed of doubt in you a long time ago, that the Bible is nonsense and that your opinions are all that matter. God is just an evil murderer who hates everyone, you have all the answers, not him. The funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are? We'd all be here by chance, nothing would mean anything, and anyone would be free to do whatever they wanted. Why not? If someone didn't agree with your rules, why should they have to follow them? Or you theirs? You take issue with God, implying you believe if he did exist he would be wrong for what he has done. Hmm, this kind of sounds like a belief in good and evil. Again, interesting. If you believe in evil, which we know you do considering you believe God would be just that "if" he existed, then you must believe in good, and apparently you must believe both good and evil just happened to evolve. Are you going to hold your belief system to the same standards you're holding my Christian faith to? If so, where is your proof that good/evil simply evolved? Being an atheist, you've no doubt heard this argument before. Or maybe you haven't. Either way it doesn't matter, the fact is you believe in something just as strongly as Christians believe in something. You don't believe the Christian faith because you say it can't be proven, prove your position that good/evil evolved on its own (as would be necessary without God) and we can go from there.

The bottom line is that if your world view is correct, that there is no God, right and wrong would be subjective.


: June 28, 2014, 03:05:33 AM Escobar06

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#17 : June 28, 2014, 12:00:23 PM



Explain to me how me stating an opinion is imposing my view on Christians?

Your views on life, including your moral and ethical standards effect the decisions you make. That includes voting, which laws you support etc.

Let's take same sex marriage. You say Christians are homophobic so I am going to take an educated guess that you are supportive. My faith tells me marriage is a sacrament between a man and a women. You are however happy to "impose" your world view upon me and make it legal.

Abortion. You say Christians are misogynistic so I am going to make another assumption you are in favor or a womans "right to choose" and are supportive of the birth control debate. My faith says birth control is wrong but am having other peoples world view imposed upon me.

I make a couple of assumptions here I admit, and I don't really intend for it to be debate on the pros and cons of the issues and if you actually support those viewpoints or not, but it demonstrates that whenever a party enacts some kind of legislation against the viewpoint of another they are imposing it upon them. And, what you are implying that you can use a political or "social justice" moral compass to decide these issues, but Christians cannot use their own moral compass, which in this case is their faith. Why not?

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#18 : June 28, 2014, 12:07:12 PM

The only difference between Christianity and Islam is that Muslims take their holy book much more seriously than Christians do.
What I find about your statement is what I find about the Women Commentator's answer to the Muslim Woman. You incorporate the extremist with 75% of the others who are peaceful Christians...OBD


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#19 : June 28, 2014, 12:24:04 PM

The problem with nonbelief is not a problem of "lack of evidence". Rather It is problem with the heart condition.

These people refuse to "see" because they do not want to "see". Fix the heart and the mind will follow.

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#20 : June 28, 2014, 01:46:18 PM

The problem with nonbelief is not a problem of "lack of evidence". Rather It is problem with the heart condition.

These people refuse to "see" because they do not want to "see". Fix the heart and the mind will follow.

There are two issue's concerning fixing the Heart.
1) The governments of these countries see their grip on the nation as losing instead of gaining. They have been like this for 4000 years or more. Which is why I compare the muslim and Israel/Jewish communities like brothers fighting each other.
2) To change the hearts you have to also be there to establish Christ as the Savior of the world. There are people there to represent Christ but they are receiving great persecution being there. The Government doesn't want Christians there so they can continue to do as they have done. ..OBD


Revis and Butt-head

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#21 : June 28, 2014, 07:35:17 PM



Explain to me how me stating an opinion is imposing my view on Christians?

Your views on life, including your moral and ethical standards effect the decisions you make. That includes voting, which laws you support etc.

Let's take same sex marriage. You say Christians are homophobic so I am going to take an educated guess that you are supportive. My faith tells me marriage is a sacrament between a man and a women. You are however happy to "impose" your world view upon me and make it legal.

Abortion. You say Christians are misogynistic so I am going to make another assumption you are in favor or a womans "right to choose" and are supportive of the birth control debate. My faith says birth control is wrong but am having other peoples world view imposed upon me.

I make a couple of assumptions here I admit, and I don't really intend for it to be debate on the pros and cons of the issues and if you actually support those viewpoints or not, but it demonstrates that whenever a party enacts some kind of legislation against the viewpoint of another they are imposing it upon them. And, what you are implying that you can use a political or "social justice" moral compass to decide these issues, but Christians cannot use their own moral compass, which in this case is their faith. Why not?

Interesting point you make.  One thing I would say is that I did not say Christians were homophobic or misogynistic.  I said the Christianity aka the Bible is.  Christians just believe it to be true and while some may be I would say most are good people.  You may disagree with gay marriage but I doubt that you would agree that it should be illegal for someone to be gay or that they would be put do death for being gay.  You may not agree with abortion but I highly doubt that you agree that if a man rapes a virgin he should marry her and never get divorced as long as he pays the father.  I would never state that someone is misogynistic because they did not support abortion because I know it is a contentious issue that even I am not sure of.  You may say that these are old laws that do not apply anymore but they are still being applied elsewhere around the world.  Take Uganda for example.  They just recently passed a bill to put outed gay in jail for life because of what the Bible said.  Or when Catholics went to Africa to tell them that AIDS might be bad but condoms are worse which has helped spread AIDS across that country.  These things have major consequences. 

You can say that I am imposing my view on Christians by going to the voting booth and etc.  I wasn't necessarily that Christians being against gay marriage or abortion was imposing their views on other people.  Those are just contentious political issues.  While I believe that gays should be allowed to marry, I disagree with the government forcing a Christian take pictures of the wedding or making a wedding cake because I know how important religious freedom is.  That would be imposing a view on someone else.  If gay marriage was legal tomorrow, you may disagree vehemently but at the end of the day your life will continue to go on without much difference.  The government allowing gays to marry won't make you any less a Christian as you are now.  You can continue on your daily routine and be just as strong of a Christian as you were before while you disagree what the government is doing which I am sure that you already disagree plenty with the government now.


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#22 : June 29, 2014, 04:46:30 PM

If gay marriage was legalized nationally ~ Christians would go on with their life without too much impact? I disagree. As moral standards continue to decline it becomes increasingly difficult for Christians to remain chaste. Advertising DOES influence minds and behaviors. We are surrounded by homosexuality, loose conduct, women with almost nothing on, and low morals in the media and the work place and in the public domain. It absolutely makes life hard for the devout Christian. So according to your logic we should just stay indoors, turn off our TV, not listen to the radio, or surf the internet?

The government of the United States is supposed to be a government from the people for the people. Currently a very small minority of wealthy criminal Luciferians have seized control (they have been working at it for some time now) and are acting unilaterally against the will of the majority. Most of America (and the WORLD) are professed Christians. Christians are not perfect. We fall into sin sometimes but we do not stay there. We do not invent excuses as to why we sinned or want to sin (born this way etc) and true Christians will repent immediately. Your opinion is Satanic. God is not homophobic. I have got to laugh at this one. God classifies all the definitions as He sees fit. He says what is good or evil. He defines what is holy and what is profane. He says homosexuality is not good but an evil act. You think like the devil ~ which is your God given right. You may choose death over life ...and be all bitter about it...but in the end ...just like your Satanic father...it is YOUR CHOICE.
: June 29, 2014, 05:11:55 PM OneTruth

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#23 : June 29, 2014, 04:57:01 PM

People are not born gay. They are not born kleptomaniacs, alcoholics, sex addicts, cigarette smokers, gluttons, or anything else. Behavior is habit forming. Some habits are bad for the body...some are bad for the soul. People have unique personalities that are inclined to weakness toward one or more sins as stated in the Bible (James 1:14) (Luke 17:1). Any of these sinful behaviors can be broken but ....as everyone knows...it is extremely difficult. NOT IMPOSSIBLE. But now we have some gay scientists discovering the gay gene and we are just born this way has spread through the world like wild fire.

There are 2 spirits at work in the world. Everyone on the side of truth listens to Jesus' voice and we work together for good. The sons of disobedience are all working together for ill (music industry, governments, Hollywood, industry, science, and education) and they also are being guided by a spirit that has a will and a purpose. Knowing what these skull and bones and illuminatti occultists think...someone is lying. Either Jehovah or Lucifer.
: June 29, 2014, 07:48:53 PM OneTruth

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#24 : June 29, 2014, 06:28:22 PM

I know I am late to this discussion but Escobar06 is not a christian.  Can't be.

Escobar06

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#25 : June 29, 2014, 10:06:42 PM

I'm sure your reasoning behind that statement is exceptional. So let's hear it.

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#26 : June 29, 2014, 10:27:34 PM

The underlying principles of both christianity and conservatism are too conflicting. Christianity is forgiving and inclusive while conservatives and the Republican right get more and more exclusive everyday.  In fact, whenever Ann Coulter talks the party loses voters.  There are great biblical lessons that you could learn, and a thorough education of the bible would probably do you some good. Particularly if you applied what you learn from the good book to how you approach discussions with others regarding Christianity. Presumably, you want others to be enlightened by God's word, being elite and exclusive is no way to go about it if you are truly a practicing Christian.

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#27 : June 30, 2014, 03:35:52 AM

My Savior is called "MK11".

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#28 : June 30, 2014, 10:09:14 AM

The underlying principles of both christianity and conservatism are too conflicting. Christianity is forgiving and inclusive while conservatives and the Republican right get more and more exclusive everyday.  In fact, whenever Ann Coulter talks the party loses voters.  There are great biblical lessons that you could learn, and a thorough education of the bible would probably do you some good. Particularly if you applied what you learn from the good book to how you approach discussions with others regarding Christianity. Presumably, you want others to be enlightened by God's word, being elite and exclusive is no way to go about it if you are truly a practicing Christian.

You might be right about Ann Coulter, but you seem to be confusing forgiving with condoning. If you love someone you tell them they are being self destructive. You don't let them continue and pretend it isn't happening.

Revis and Butt-head

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#29 : June 30, 2014, 11:53:50 AM

"Since this is the basis of your entire argument, it's the only thing worth responding to. Well, other than you saying you don't hate someone that doesn't exist, only to call that someone a misogynist and a homophobe. Interesting. Also, you didn't say "other than Muslims being much more violent, it's the same thing". The tiny little part about Muslims being much more violent wasn't included in your initial unprovoked attack on Christianity. You're adding it in now because you're starting to realize that what you said was very stupid. Good, a little honesty."

First off, you can describe a character in a book without believing that character exists.  People analyze fiction all the time.  Secondly, in my original post I said the only real difference between Christianity and Islam is that Muslims take their book a lot more literally that Christians do.  While I did not explicitly say that Muslims were more violent in my original post, it was implied.  So I am not changing my stance like you said.

"The only thing to say is that the Bible presents plenty of evidence that Jesus was/is who he claimed. Anyone can simply refuse to believe anything the Bible says, and through free will you've chosen that route. Again, this leads back to your desire to be God-like and have the answers to everything. You don't see that connection apparently, but it's there, and it's obvious. You can't even begin to understand what goes in to everything God does, or has done. Yet even knowing this to be fact, you still pretend to have all the answers. "To me, as a human, this looks a certain way, therefore my opinion trumps all and it IS that way". This is basically your line of thought, and it's absurd. You aren't the authority on anything, step one is you realizing that. God created everything that exists, he sets the rules not you or anyone else. Calling God a homophobe is beyond ludicrous, you're telling the creator of everything their view on how things should be is wrong, and your view is right. Again, it all goes straight back to ego. To get around the "being judged" aspect, you simply tell yourself that God doesn't exist in the first place, therefore OF COURSE your own personal views are correct. Who's to say otherwise, right?"

I don't require to have the answers to everything but I do require at least some evidence to believe something exists.  There are plenty of people who claim that they were abducted by aliens but they don't have proof that it happened.  Is it unreasonable for me to ask for some evidence of this before believing?  And if the Bible is your proof then what makes you think it is any more reliable than the Koran or any other holy book?  I am guessing you were probably born into Christianity.  While there are some who change religions during their lifetime most stick with the one they grew up in.  If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely be a Muslim.  If you were born in India, you would most likely be a Hindu.  You must be lucky to be born here in the right faith, right?

"Again, satan is having a field day with you. He's using your ego and arrogance against you with great success. Most likely he planted the seed of doubt in you a long time ago, that the Bible is nonsense and that your opinions are all that matter. God is just an evil murderer who hates everyone, you have all the answers, not him. The funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are? We'd all be here by chance, nothing would mean anything, and anyone would be free to do whatever they wanted. Why not? If someone didn't agree with your rules, why should they have to follow them? Or you theirs? You take issue with God, implying you believe if he did exist he would be wrong for what he has done. Hmm, this kind of sounds like a belief in good and evil. Again, interesting. If you believe in evil, which we know you do considering you believe God would be just that "if" he existed, then you must believe in good, and apparently you must believe both good and evil just happened to evolve. Are you going to hold your belief system to the same standards you're holding my Christian faith to? If so, where is your proof that good/evil simply evolved? Being an atheist, you've no doubt heard this argument before. Or maybe you haven't. Either way it doesn't matter, the fact is you believe in something just as strongly as Christians believe in something. You don't believe the Christian faith because you say it can't be proven, prove your position that good/evil evolved on its own (as would be necessary without God) and we can go from there. "

Please stop with the Satan thing.  It is condescending and doesn't help this debate.

The rest of your argument is interesting, though.  The stuff about whether morality is objective or subjective.  That is a good question. 

While I don't think morality is objective in the sense that a god decides for everyone what is right and what is wrong, I do think it is objective in a way that it can be measured whether certain actions make peoples lives around you better or worse.  You think something is wrong because Yahweh told you it is wrong.  I think something is wrong because of the consequences of those actions to myself and the people around me.  For example, one of the ten commandments says stealing is wrong.  I agree, but I see it as wrong because if I stole from someone, it would make that person's life worse.

I also understand that there are some gray areas when it comes to these things.  For example, was America right to drop atomic bombs in Japan?  Clearly that murdered a ton of people but some would argue that if America did not do it the war would have went on and more people than that would have died.  I personally think it was wrong because of all the innocent civilians that died and I don't like how atomic bombs truly cheapens life.  Though others say it was a necessary evil to end the war.  I am sure those people think murder is wrong but why do they think that is O.K.?  Here is another example.  We agree that lying is wrong.  But what about the families during WW2 that hide Jewish families in their homes and lied to Nazi soldiers about them being there.  Were they wrong to do so? They were lying but they were doing so to protect other peoples lives.  I am sure that we would both agree that what they did was right even though they were lying.  A final example would be about stealing.  Stealing is wrong, yes?  But what about a peasant father who steals bread from a bakery to feed his starving family.  Is he wrong to do so?  He is stealing but he is also keeping his family from starving.

My point in all of this is that it is objective and subjective.  Morality isn't always black and white.  You say that Yahweh will hold you accountable for your actions.  For me, it is the people around me who will hold me responsible for my actions.  I try to live my life by making sure my actions don't harm other people or myself.
: June 30, 2014, 11:55:21 AM Revis and Butt-head

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