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Ozymandias

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#30 : June 30, 2014, 12:00:20 PM

  "funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are?"

The most insulting aspect of your religion is the belief that man is incapable of morality without having it dictated to him. That's certainly a demeaning view of humanity.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Revis and Butt-head

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#31 : June 30, 2014, 12:20:48 PM

I also forgot to mention this in my previous post.

Most would say that belief that god sets the rules is objective morality.  But is it really?

Here me out.  In the Bible, Yahweh tells Abraham to kill his sacrifice his son to him though it was actually Yahweh testing Abraham to make sure that he will follow whatever thing he says.  Escobar, I am sure you believe that Yahweh created the world and made all the rules on morality, right?  At the beginning of the world Yahweh could have just of easily made rape and murder moral since he is God and can do what he wants. So wouldn't that be subjective?


Ozymandias

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#32 : June 30, 2014, 12:27:59 PM

  "Yahweh tells Abraham to kill his sacrifice his son to him though it was actually Yahweh testing Abraham to make sure that he will follow whatever thing he says."

No, the moral of that story is that human sacrifice is no longer necessary to placate the gods, animals can take their place. It is lifted from Phrixus in Greek mythology.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Revis and Butt-head

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#33 : June 30, 2014, 12:32:11 PM

Either way, Yahweh sure loves him some blood sacrifice.  It is said that the aroma of blood burning is pleasing to him.


Ozymandias

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#34 : June 30, 2014, 12:37:14 PM


In antiquity, the economy of Jerusalem is based on animal sacrifice. Jerusalem is alleged to have been founded on the spot where Isaac was to have been sacrificed.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Escobar06

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#35 : June 30, 2014, 12:57:07 PM

The underlying principles of both christianity and conservatism are too conflicting. Christianity is forgiving and inclusive while conservatives and the Republican right get more and more exclusive everyday.  In fact, whenever Ann Coulter talks the party loses voters.  There are great biblical lessons that you could learn, and a thorough education of the bible would probably do you some good. Particularly if you applied what you learn from the good book to how you approach discussions with others regarding Christianity. Presumably, you want others to be enlightened by God's word, being elite and exclusive is no way to go about it if you are truly a practicing Christian.

I'd like to respond to this post, but I have no clue how you came to this conclusion based on anything I said. I'm having a conversation with an atheist, there are going to be conflicting viewpoints, obviously. I'm not going to sugarcoat the conversation and tell him he's making the right choice. That sounds like new age christian nonsense, where everything is acceptable and the only thing that matters is "love and acceptance". If that's what you're looking for, you won't find it here.

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#36 : June 30, 2014, 01:08:22 PM

"Since this is the basis of your entire argument, it's the only thing worth responding to. Well, other than you saying you don't hate someone that doesn't exist, only to call that someone a misogynist and a homophobe. Interesting. Also, you didn't say "other than Muslims being much more violent, it's the same thing". The tiny little part about Muslims being much more violent wasn't included in your initial unprovoked attack on Christianity. You're adding it in now because you're starting to realize that what you said was very stupid. Good, a little honesty."

First off, you can describe a character in a book without believing that character exists.  People analyze fiction all the time.  Secondly, in my original post I said the only real difference between Christianity and Islam is that Muslims take their book a lot more literally that Christians do.  While I did not explicitly say that Muslims were more violent in my original post, it was implied.  So I am not changing my stance like you said.

"The only thing to say is that the Bible presents plenty of evidence that Jesus was/is who he claimed. Anyone can simply refuse to believe anything the Bible says, and through free will you've chosen that route. Again, this leads back to your desire to be God-like and have the answers to everything. You don't see that connection apparently, but it's there, and it's obvious. You can't even begin to understand what goes in to everything God does, or has done. Yet even knowing this to be fact, you still pretend to have all the answers. "To me, as a human, this looks a certain way, therefore my opinion trumps all and it IS that way". This is basically your line of thought, and it's absurd. You aren't the authority on anything, step one is you realizing that. God created everything that exists, he sets the rules not you or anyone else. Calling God a homophobe is beyond ludicrous, you're telling the creator of everything their view on how things should be is wrong, and your view is right. Again, it all goes straight back to ego. To get around the "being judged" aspect, you simply tell yourself that God doesn't exist in the first place, therefore OF COURSE your own personal views are correct. Who's to say otherwise, right?"

I don't require to have the answers to everything but I do require at least some evidence to believe something exists.  There are plenty of people who claim that they were abducted by aliens but they don't have proof that it happened.  Is it unreasonable for me to ask for some evidence of this before believing?  And if the Bible is your proof then what makes you think it is any more reliable than the Koran or any other holy book?  I am guessing you were probably born into Christianity.  While there are some who change religions during their lifetime most stick with the one they grew up in.  If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely be a Muslim.  If you were born in India, you would most likely be a Hindu.  You must be lucky to be born here in the right faith, right?

"Again, satan is having a field day with you. He's using your ego and arrogance against you with great success. Most likely he planted the seed of doubt in you a long time ago, that the Bible is nonsense and that your opinions are all that matter. God is just an evil murderer who hates everyone, you have all the answers, not him. The funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are? We'd all be here by chance, nothing would mean anything, and anyone would be free to do whatever they wanted. Why not? If someone didn't agree with your rules, why should they have to follow them? Or you theirs? You take issue with God, implying you believe if he did exist he would be wrong for what he has done. Hmm, this kind of sounds like a belief in good and evil. Again, interesting. If you believe in evil, which we know you do considering you believe God would be just that "if" he existed, then you must believe in good, and apparently you must believe both good and evil just happened to evolve. Are you going to hold your belief system to the same standards you're holding my Christian faith to? If so, where is your proof that good/evil simply evolved? Being an atheist, you've no doubt heard this argument before. Or maybe you haven't. Either way it doesn't matter, the fact is you believe in something just as strongly as Christians believe in something. You don't believe the Christian faith because you say it can't be proven, prove your position that good/evil evolved on its own (as would be necessary without God) and we can go from there. "

Please stop with the Satan thing.  It is condescending and doesn't help this debate.

The rest of your argument is interesting, though.  The stuff about whether morality is objective or subjective.  That is a good question. 

While I don't think morality is objective in the sense that a god decides for everyone what is right and what is wrong, I do think it is objective in a way that it can be measured whether certain actions make peoples lives around you better or worse.  You think something is wrong because Yahweh told you it is wrong.  I think something is wrong because of the consequences of those actions to myself and the people around me.  For example, one of the ten commandments says stealing is wrong.  I agree, but I see it as wrong because if I stole from someone, it would make that person's life worse.

I also understand that there are some gray areas when it comes to these things.  For example, was America right to drop atomic bombs in Japan?  Clearly that murdered a ton of people but some would argue that if America did not do it the war would have went on and more people than that would have died.  I personally think it was wrong because of all the innocent civilians that died and I don't like how atomic bombs truly cheapens life.  Though others say it was a necessary evil to end the war.  I am sure those people think murder is wrong but why do they think that is O.K.?  Here is another example.  We agree that lying is wrong.  But what about the families during WW2 that hide Jewish families in their homes and lied to Nazi soldiers about them being there.  Were they wrong to do so? They were lying but they were doing so to protect other peoples lives.  I am sure that we would both agree that what they did was right even though they were lying.  A final example would be about stealing.  Stealing is wrong, yes?  But what about a peasant father who steals bread from a bakery to feed his starving family.  Is he wrong to do so?  He is stealing but he is also keeping his family from starving.

My point in all of this is that it is objective and subjective.  Morality isn't always black and white.  You say that Yahweh will hold you accountable for your actions.  For me, it is the people around me who will hold me responsible for my actions.  I try to live my life by making sure my actions don't harm other people or myself.


If you don't like hearing about satan, you're probably going to really dislike meeting him. I'm not going to change how I go about this topic simply because you don't want to hear it. Do I need to remind you that you singled out my post, not the other way around? I didn't engage you in this debate, that was your decision. I'm not going to soften my stance to appease someone whose goal was to mock my faith. In other words, if you don't want to hear it, don't stick your nose in my business.

I'm not a Christian because I was raised Christian, I'm a Christian because from what I've read it's the only religion that makes sense. I knew you'd pull this card though, atheists always do. 

The point I'm making is that you also have faith in something. You have faith that we're all here by chance, nothing turned into everything. Nobody can possibly prove such a theory, but atheists believe it 100 percent. Mocking Christians for believing in something you don't believe can be proven just makes you a hypocrite.

Escobar06

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#37 : June 30, 2014, 01:20:39 PM

  "funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are?"

The most insulting aspect of your religion is the belief that man is incapable of morality without having it dictated to him. That's certainly a demeaning view of humanity.


Not incapable of morality, it would just be subjective. Morality in the sense you're using it means good/evil. How can you be an atheist and believe in good/evil? That doesn't add up to me. As a person living on a planet in a universe that was all created entirely by chance, anything would go. What you view as good might be viewed as evil by someone else, and neither of you would be wrong. If you want to provide me some evidence that this sort of thing could evolve on it's own, have at it.

Ozymandias

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#38 : June 30, 2014, 01:22:32 PM


I'm not an atheist. I have pointed this out dozens of times.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Escobar06

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#39 : June 30, 2014, 01:25:16 PM

  "Yahweh tells Abraham to kill his sacrifice his son to him though it was actually Yahweh testing Abraham to make sure that he will follow whatever thing he says."

No, the moral of that story is that human sacrifice is no longer necessary to placate the gods, animals can take their place. It is lifted from Phrixus in Greek mythology.

No, that's not the moral of the story, though you knew that already.

Escobar06

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#40 : June 30, 2014, 01:26:08 PM


I'm not an atheist. I have pointed this out dozens of times.


Right, you're agnostic except when it comes to Christianity. That's the only religion you're "sure" about. It makes a great deal of sense, carry on.

Ozymandias

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#41 : June 30, 2014, 01:34:11 PM


The poor persecuted Christian majority.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Revis and Butt-head

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#42 : June 30, 2014, 01:43:40 PM

"Since this is the basis of your entire argument, it's the only thing worth responding to. Well, other than you saying you don't hate someone that doesn't exist, only to call that someone a misogynist and a homophobe. Interesting. Also, you didn't say "other than Muslims being much more violent, it's the same thing". The tiny little part about Muslims being much more violent wasn't included in your initial unprovoked attack on Christianity. You're adding it in now because you're starting to realize that what you said was very stupid. Good, a little honesty."

First off, you can describe a character in a book without believing that character exists.  People analyze fiction all the time.  Secondly, in my original post I said the only real difference between Christianity and Islam is that Muslims take their book a lot more literally that Christians do.  While I did not explicitly say that Muslims were more violent in my original post, it was implied.  So I am not changing my stance like you said.

"The only thing to say is that the Bible presents plenty of evidence that Jesus was/is who he claimed. Anyone can simply refuse to believe anything the Bible says, and through free will you've chosen that route. Again, this leads back to your desire to be God-like and have the answers to everything. You don't see that connection apparently, but it's there, and it's obvious. You can't even begin to understand what goes in to everything God does, or has done. Yet even knowing this to be fact, you still pretend to have all the answers. "To me, as a human, this looks a certain way, therefore my opinion trumps all and it IS that way". This is basically your line of thought, and it's absurd. You aren't the authority on anything, step one is you realizing that. God created everything that exists, he sets the rules not you or anyone else. Calling God a homophobe is beyond ludicrous, you're telling the creator of everything their view on how things should be is wrong, and your view is right. Again, it all goes straight back to ego. To get around the "being judged" aspect, you simply tell yourself that God doesn't exist in the first place, therefore OF COURSE your own personal views are correct. Who's to say otherwise, right?"

I don't require to have the answers to everything but I do require at least some evidence to believe something exists.  There are plenty of people who claim that they were abducted by aliens but they don't have proof that it happened.  Is it unreasonable for me to ask for some evidence of this before believing?  And if the Bible is your proof then what makes you think it is any more reliable than the Koran or any other holy book?  I am guessing you were probably born into Christianity.  While there are some who change religions during their lifetime most stick with the one they grew up in.  If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely be a Muslim.  If you were born in India, you would most likely be a Hindu.  You must be lucky to be born here in the right faith, right?

"Again, satan is having a field day with you. He's using your ego and arrogance against you with great success. Most likely he planted the seed of doubt in you a long time ago, that the Bible is nonsense and that your opinions are all that matter. God is just an evil murderer who hates everyone, you have all the answers, not him. The funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are? We'd all be here by chance, nothing would mean anything, and anyone would be free to do whatever they wanted. Why not? If someone didn't agree with your rules, why should they have to follow them? Or you theirs? You take issue with God, implying you believe if he did exist he would be wrong for what he has done. Hmm, this kind of sounds like a belief in good and evil. Again, interesting. If you believe in evil, which we know you do considering you believe God would be just that "if" he existed, then you must believe in good, and apparently you must believe both good and evil just happened to evolve. Are you going to hold your belief system to the same standards you're holding my Christian faith to? If so, where is your proof that good/evil simply evolved? Being an atheist, you've no doubt heard this argument before. Or maybe you haven't. Either way it doesn't matter, the fact is you believe in something just as strongly as Christians believe in something. You don't believe the Christian faith because you say it can't be proven, prove your position that good/evil evolved on its own (as would be necessary without God) and we can go from there. "

Please stop with the Satan thing.  It is condescending and doesn't help this debate.

The rest of your argument is interesting, though.  The stuff about whether morality is objective or subjective.  That is a good question. 

While I don't think morality is objective in the sense that a god decides for everyone what is right and what is wrong, I do think it is objective in a way that it can be measured whether certain actions make peoples lives around you better or worse.  You think something is wrong because Yahweh told you it is wrong.  I think something is wrong because of the consequences of those actions to myself and the people around me.  For example, one of the ten commandments says stealing is wrong.  I agree, but I see it as wrong because if I stole from someone, it would make that person's life worse.

I also understand that there are some gray areas when it comes to these things.  For example, was America right to drop atomic bombs in Japan?  Clearly that murdered a ton of people but some would argue that if America did not do it the war would have went on and more people than that would have died.  I personally think it was wrong because of all the innocent civilians that died and I don't like how atomic bombs truly cheapens life.  Though others say it was a necessary evil to end the war.  I am sure those people think murder is wrong but why do they think that is O.K.?  Here is another example.  We agree that lying is wrong.  But what about the families during WW2 that hide Jewish families in their homes and lied to Nazi soldiers about them being there.  Were they wrong to do so? They were lying but they were doing so to protect other peoples lives.  I am sure that we would both agree that what they did was right even though they were lying.  A final example would be about stealing.  Stealing is wrong, yes?  But what about a peasant father who steals bread from a bakery to feed his starving family.  Is he wrong to do so?  He is stealing but he is also keeping his family from starving.

My point in all of this is that it is objective and subjective.  Morality isn't always black and white.  You say that Yahweh will hold you accountable for your actions.  For me, it is the people around me who will hold me responsible for my actions.  I try to live my life by making sure my actions don't harm other people or myself.


If you don't like hearing about satan, you're probably going to really dislike meeting him. I'm not going to change how I go about this topic simply because you don't want to hear it. Do I need to remind you that you singled out my post, not the other way around? I didn't engage you in this debate, that was your decision. I'm not going to soften my stance to appease someone whose goal was to mock my faith. In other words, if you don't want to hear it, don't stick your nose in my business.

I'm not a Christian because I was raised Christian, I'm a Christian because from what I've read it's the only religion that makes sense. I knew you'd pull this card though, atheists always do. 

The point I'm making is that you also have faith in something. You have faith that we're all here by chance, nothing turned into everything. Nobody can possibly prove such a theory, but atheists believe it 100 percent. Mocking Christians for believing in something you don't believe can be proven just makes you a hypocrite.

You can keep saying that I am being used by Satan.  I don't believe Satan exists so it does not matter to me.  I said to stop saying it over and over again because it adds nothing to this discussion.  It is not that I find it offensive, I actually find it silly.  Also I made a post in reply to your post as most people do in discussion boards.  I am not sticking my nose into your business.

Were you raised in a Christian household?  It is a fair question to ask.  If so wouldn't you feel lucky to be raised in the "right" faith as apposed to people who never have heard of Jesus or the Bible and are predestined to eternal damnation?

Atheism is simply not believing in a god or deity.  It makes no claims about how the universe exists.  Not all atheists believe everything came out of nothing.  Once again you are stereotyping.  For me, I don't claim that no god exists.  I simply have no evidence to prove a god exists and therefore don't believe in a god existing. 

One more thing, though.  I find it strange that you say that I am mocking Christians.  I think I have been very civil in this discussion.  Sure I have used some strong language but just like you I am not going to soften my stance to appease you.  I know a lot of Christians that I love and respect dearly and would never purposefully mock them.  Disagreeing with is not mocking. 

: June 30, 2014, 01:45:18 PM Revis and Butt-head


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#43 : June 30, 2014, 01:44:07 PM

  "funny thing about all of this is that if God really didn't exist, where would your morality come from to even make the accusations you are?"

The most insulting aspect of your religion is the belief that man is incapable of morality without having it dictated to him. That's certainly a demeaning view of humanity.

Which part of humanity's history leads to you to have a positive view on humanity morals?


Escobar06

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#44 : June 30, 2014, 01:44:40 PM

Good, glad you agree your viewpoint is absurd.

So which religions have you narrowed it down to? Or have you created your own? I'd love to hear about it.
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