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bouconagain

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#15 : March 24, 2007, 11:11:36 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.
They aren't playing on our team.  Who cares what they are doing for another team.

Man, no kidding.  I don't call anyone a homer, since I'm undoubtedly the biggest homer of all, but to think that you should judge the caliber of a player based on whether he's still playing for your team....well, a couple hall of famers (hey! Steve Young!) might disagree with that particular analysis.

Because of finances. I'll say it again, just because a player leaves as a FA doesn't mean it wasn't a good pick.

Webster is a good example of this.  IMO, he's an example of a backup who should always have stayed a backup.  But, because I'm not a GM, he got starter money to leave and show beyond a doubt that he should be a backup.  But whether he took the money at Cincy and left, or stayed here and played behind Quarles, does that mean that a 3rd rounder was wasted on him?  I'd say no - he's a 3rd round pick at "MLB" who if he stayed backup his entire career wouldn't mean the pick was a bad one.  We lucked out with having an undrafted Quarles play at a relatively high level at MLB, when you look around the league at what draft picks are playing in that spot, and who he was replacing.

Just as I'd say that the 2nd round pick hopefully wasn't wasted on Ruud, because somebody has been playing at a pretty high level in front of him.

ETA: Itchalot, the whole "they're not playing on our team, so yes it does mean it's a wasted pick" ignores pretty resoundingly the realities of free agency and player contract demands.  There's a difference between cutting/trading a guy (a la Cooper) because he sucks monkey balls and letting somebody walk (a la White) because he's getting more money than he should.  IMO, that doesn't mean they wasted a pick on White.

ETA: why the hairy blue balls am I quoting myself?

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#16 : March 24, 2007, 10:40:01 PM

One year I could see. Ruud has already had two full years and the jury is still out. White had about five years I think and finally he got in because of injury and then we let him go.

But you hit on what one of the problems is a difference in philosophy.  Allen wants to use those high picks on people who will get in and help right away.  Kiffin says well maybe eventually or maybe never.   So that could be a disconnect that I'm talking about.

Anyway, I'm not saying Kiffin is the problem. Is it Kiffin?  Allen?  Gruden?  Or a combination?  I'm just speculating on all the reasons.  But there is a problem.  I'm not speculating about that.   0 for 6.  Do the math.


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#17 : March 24, 2007, 10:45:33 PM

One year I could see. Ruud has already had two full years and the jury is still out. White had about five years I think and finally he got in because of injury and then we let him go.

But you hit on what one of the problems is a difference in philosophy.  Allen wants to use those high picks on people who will get in and help right away.  Kiffin says well maybe eventually or maybe never.   So that could be a disconnect that I'm talking about.

What I don't understand is the Cover 2 is supposed to be one of the easiest defenses in the league to learn. Players call it simple. I just think Kiffin has his loyalties with certain players and creates the type of environment that makes it difficult to unseat his favorites.

Itchalot

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#18 : March 24, 2007, 11:10:32 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.
They aren't playing on our team. Who cares what they are doing for another team.

Because of finances. I'll say it again, just because a player leaves as a FA doesn't mean it wasn't a good pick.
Yes it does.  Thats the point.  We spent a pick on them and we didn't get what we expected to get.  If they left because we didn't have a job for them, that means somewhere along the line a mistake was made.


bouconagain

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#19 : March 24, 2007, 10:51:15 PM

One year I could see. Ruud has already had two full years and the jury is still out. White had about five years I think and finally he got in because of injury and then we let him go.


Ruud had two years behind Quarles, who put up some decent numbers during that time - either the top or second tackler.  I think Ruud will be a stud.  I hope he will.

I'm not sure you make your point with these players.
In the last 8 drafts, how many 1st day defensive picks successfully lived up to what we expected them to do for this team?

Well, see my initial response.  I mean, color it how you want, but aside from Cooper, who we can agree was one hell of a waste of a 3rd round pick, all of these guys started, and you could make the case that the Bucs wanted to retain all of these guys, at least from the standpoint that somebody else paid them starter money.  My measure for a failure is whether a high round player (which I wouldn't consider a 3rd rounder, but am willing to be wrong on that) is starting 3 years out.  Again, aside from Cooper, all of those guys made that cut at some point in their career. 

As for Ruud, I hope he's a stud.  I think they took him too early two years ago, and I hope he fills the void that I expect Quarles will leave.  Then again, I've never been sold on Quarles, despite his sometimes gaudy numbers, so I don't think it should be too hard.

Anyhoo, all I was saying is that I don't think the guys you listed represent particularly bad drafting.  They've all had some measure of success, either with the Bucs or with some other team.

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#20 : March 24, 2007, 11:05:04 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.
They aren't playing on our team.  Who cares what they are doing for another team.

Because of finances. I'll say it again, just because a player leaves as a FA doesn't mean it wasn't a good pick.

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#21 : March 24, 2007, 10:59:21 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.

Itchalot

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#22 : March 24, 2007, 11:01:35 PM

Boucon.  The answer is zero.

Lets say you ask your freind to go buy a light bulb.  He says "Count on me! I'll go do it right now!"  He goes and comes back six times without the light bulb.  Each time he has a very legitimate excuse as to why he couldn't get the lightbulb.  Then you really need the light bulb and you don't have any more chances.  Your friend says "Hey I'll go don't worry about me!"  Are you worried?


Itchalot

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#23 : March 24, 2007, 11:02:46 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.
They aren't playing on our team.  Who cares what they are doing for another team.  If we got another good player in trade that would be one thing.  We got nothing for them.  If a player did not do what we expected him to do for OUR team, then that pick was a failure. 


Itchalot

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#24 : March 24, 2007, 11:14:11 PM

Not judging the caliber of the player.  But we aren't picking to help the rest of the NFL. We are picking guys who are supposed to be helping us as starters for years to come.  If we pick somebody and then don't have a spot for them then we made a mistake, regardless of how good that player is.  If we got something in trade, or if the guy started for five years that would be different.  Only Booger was a regular starter for a couple years and he didn't live up to expectations even then, so we traded him.  Right now in 8 years there is only one of them wearing a Bucs uniform and the jury is still out on that one.  We are supposed to be picking players who start in our system for our team, not just good players who we let walk.


bouconagain

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#25 : March 24, 2007, 11:15:58 PM

Not judging the caliber of the player.  But we aren't picking to help the rest of the NFL. We are picking guys who are supposed to be helping us as starters for years to come.  If we pick somebody and then don't have a spot for them then we made a mistake, regardless of how good that player is.  Right now in 8 years there is only one of them wearing a Bucs uniform and the jury is still out on that one.

Aside from Booger, none of the guys you listed are 1st rounders.  Aside from Ruud (who's still on the team) and White (who left for much more money - SHOWING HIS VALUE?) none of the guys you listed are 2nd rounders. 

Itchalot

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#26 : March 24, 2007, 11:17:26 PM

1st Day


JC510

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#27 : March 24, 2007, 11:20:42 PM

Just because they left for more money doesn't mean Smith and White didn't pan out. They were solid picks and good players on the field.
They aren't playing on our team. Who cares what they are doing for another team.

Because of finances. I'll say it again, just because a player leaves as a FA doesn't mean it wasn't a good pick.
Yes it does.  Thats the point.  We spent a pick on them and we didn't get what we expected to get.  If they left because we didn't have a job for them, that means somewhere along the line a mistake was made.

White lived up to his expectations and Smith went beyond his. White was pick #64 and Smith was pick #84. I don't know what exactly you expect out of those picks but you need to take it down a notch or two.

bouconagain

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#28 : March 24, 2007, 11:21:22 PM

1st Day

1st day doesn't mean the same thing as 1st round.  Sure, you're not going to have all 1st rounders starting on your defense.  But you should have 1st rounders at the key positions.  And White was at a key position.  So was Webster (on any other team).  So was Booger.

Look, you'd have a much better point if these 8 guys dropped out of the league after their tenure with the Bucs.  But they didn't - aside from Cooper they all took more money to play elsewhere (or were traded for a premium pick).  So the point is that their value has been reconfirmed by other teams, and retreating to "if they don't play for the Bucs, a fortiori they're a bad pick," well, that's just beneath you (as was my "a fortiori" reference").

JC510

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#29 : March 24, 2007, 11:23:04 PM

Not judging the caliber of the player.  But we aren't picking to help the rest of the NFL. We are picking guys who are supposed to be helping us as starters for years to come.  If we pick somebody and then don't have a spot for them then we made a mistake, regardless of how good that player is.  If we got something in trade, or if the guy started for five years that would be different.  Only Booger was a regular starter for a couple years and he didn't live up to expectations even then, so we traded him.  Right now in 8 years there is only one of them wearing a Bucs uniform and the jury is still out on that one.  We are supposed to be picking players who start in our system for our team, not just good players who we let walk.

And we aren't supposed to over-pay for players just because we drafted them.
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