Bruce and Joey, Joey and Bruce

[Boid Fink]

It is clear you really haven't been paying attention at all. I didn't say Gradkowski played great the past two games. What he did, however, is make a few key plays when a few key plays were necessary. He needs to improve his passing and get closer to that 70% completion percentage he enjoyed in college.

And nothing you can say regading Gradkowski can make me angry. I am not emotionally invested in the guy. He's the QB of choice right now, he was almost the starter on opening day, but if he doesn't work out he'll be replaced -- and that's how it should be. I think he'll do fine in the long run, but if he starts to stink up the joint like Simms did before he went out, then dump him. Fast.

I'm loyal to my favorite team, not individual players. I want the best fit at every position, every week. Even icons like Brooks have to be considered for replacement at some point.

I agree.

But you brought up Simms in my argument, so it made it appear as you were emotionally wrapped in the kid (Grads).  I have said Grads needs to move the ball, needs to pass better, and even Gruden said that.  He also excused him, and that is fine.  But the passes are wild and bad, nothing to do with him being a rook.

If you bring up Simms as an argument, as a point in your thinking, it is only fair if I lump you in to Grads jock as well.  Right?

I agree.  The best man should play, but Grads is a manager right now, and 100 yards on 50 percent throwing is not good.  At all.

Next week may be different.  I hope so, I will be at that one.  And after four games, we will get a better picture of how Grads "fits" into the WCO.  I am not sold yet.  It is my right as a fan to not be.

[Pick6]

Gannon had an All Pro line, good running backs in GArner and Wheatley (at the time), Jerry Rice, Tim BRown, and Jerry Porter.

Big difference.

i'm not talking about performance, talent, or production.  i'm talking about gruden's sincere belief in a QB.

BJ & simms rarely recieved more than cautious optimism, even when playing at their best.

gruden sounded like he was apologizing for griese half the time.

you can't tell me you haven't noticed the difference in his press conferences and sideline demeanor when bruce is playing.  gruden - and the whole offense for that matter - seems to anticipate the best outcome on every snap, regardless of what happens before, during, and after.

4th quarter comebacks are not always a good sign. That means you are not getting it done for 3 quarters.

BAM!

Winner!

or you're playing superior or equal opponents.  nobody walks all over every team in this league, certainly not this bucs team....most games are close at the end - if you're making plays at the end of the game, you're going to last in this league.

ask any coach in this league if he thinks 4th quarter comebacks - particularly 3 to start your career - is a bad thing.  alot of things can be coached into a QB.  the ability to lead do-or-die drives and energize your teammates in key situations isn't one of them. i also can't think of many QBs who have 'learned' ball security or elusiveness. he's not the total package at this point, and probably not yet good enough to pin our 2007 hopes on without a veteran safety net, all i'm saying is this is the first time i've really felt like gruden has believed in a QB's ability to run his offense in tampa, aside from a brief flash from griese, and you could see it in TC, well before  bruce ever took the field.

[DanTurksGhost]

And after four games, we will get a better picture of how Grads "fits" into the WCO.

Substitute "we" with "I" in your comment. Grads is already a better fit in the offense if for no other reason than the coach who coaches the offense obviously and irrefutably believes and says that he does.

[DanTurksGhost]

But the passes are wild and bad, nothing to do with him being a rook.

I disagree. I believe his poor passes have a great deal to do with the fact that he's a rookie. The speed of the pro game is a lot faster than the college game. It takes time and experience to catch up to that. Add on the fact that he's not worked with his receivers more than a few weeks, and even the uneducated fan can understand that it takes time to get the timing and ball placement down.

[gharen]

Say what you want about Grads but he has added a spark to the whole team. It's clear he has all the intangibles to be very good. Now he has to go through the learning curve of a rookie which will probably be more bad days than good. Eventually, he will be very good, but it's going to take a few games at least. It's also obvious, Gruden thinks this guy has everything it takes to be his QB for a long time.

[Boid Fink]

Say what you want about Grads but he has added a spark to the whole team. It's clear he has all the intangibles to be very good. Now he has to go through the learning curve of a rookie which will probably be more bad days than good. Eventually, he will be very good, but it's going to take a few games at least. It's also obvious, Gruden thinks this guy has everything it takes to be his QB for a long time.

Not saying anything other than the obvious.

Grads passes need work.  It isn't about his timing, or his reading ability, or knowledge of the offense.  It is flat out about his physical tools.  Does he have enough of an arm top make things happen at the pro level?  So far, the verdict is out on that one.

[ufojoe]

Boid wrote:

Grads passes need work.  It isn't about his timing, or his reading ability, or knowledge of the offense.  It is flat out about his physical tools.  Does he have enough of an arm top make things happen at the pro level?  So far, the verdict is out on that one.

We all know that. But you are 100% wrong about it not being about his timing, reading ability or knowledge of the offense.
All of those things affect his game and he his learning all of those things at once. If he's constantly thinking about what to
do, it WILL affect his accuracy. And his arm strength is fine from what I see. Those who say he has a noodle arm are not
watching the same guy that I have seen.

Gradkowski = Manager.

King = Manager.

Simms = resigned.

You're crazy. King = had a great rushing offense. We have a good one now, but we are going to need to lean on Gradkowski down the stretch.

And Gradkowski, in theory, should have a great rushing offense. Right?

Pittman, Caddy, and Alstott.

Pittman, Dunn, and Alstott.

Pittman was signed in 2002 after Dunn left. More like Dunn and Alstott, and MAYBE Stecker.

[Boid Fink]

Boid wrote:

Grads passes need work.  It isn't about his timing, or his reading ability, or knowledge of the offense.  It is flat out about his physical tools.  Does he have enough of an arm top make things happen at the pro level?  So far, the verdict is out on that one.

We all know that. But you are 100% wrong about it not being about his timing, reading ability or knowledge of the offense.
All of those things affect his game and he his learning all of those things at once. If he's constantly thinking about what to
do, it WILL affect his accuracy. And his arm strength is fine from what I see. Those who say he has a noodle arm are not
watching the same guy that I have seen.

Well I respectfully disagree.

I have watched the last two games, and his arm looked weak.  And not very accurate.

But things can change, he is bound to play better. 

I am not a Grads basher, I am a Grads observer.  These are things we have all seen from him.  His first game was spectacular.  His last two were "meh".  If you didn't watch them UFO, you really should go back and check them out.

I am hoping he works out, why not?  I just am writing in direct observation to what I have seen.  Some of his passes were Mitch Williams like.

[caradoc]

Boid wrote:

Grads passes need work.  It isn't about his timing, or his reading ability, or knowledge of the offense.  It is flat out about his physical tools.  Does he have enough of an arm top make things happen at the pro level?  So far, the verdict is out on that one.

We all know that. But you are 100% wrong about it not being about his timing, reading ability or knowledge of the offense.
All of those things affect his game and he his learning all of those things at once. If he's constantly thinking about what to
do, it WILL affect his accuracy. And his arm strength is fine from what I see. Those who say he has a noodle arm are not
watching the same guy that I have seen.

Well I respectfully disagree.

I have watched the last two games, and his arm looked weak.  And not very accurate.

But things can change, he is bound to play better. 

I am not a Grads basher, I am a Grads observer.  These are things we have all seen from him.  His first game was spectacular.  His last two were "meh".  If you didn't watch them UFO, you really should go back and check them out.

I am hoping he works out, why not?  I just am writing in direct observation to what I have seen.  Some of his passes were Mitch Williams like.

You decided his arm is weak because he is overthrowing his recievers???  He's not underthrowing them. 
And his hitches are weak too??  Like Simms' big arm hitting Alstott's knees?  Sometimes it isn't about arm strength.  Simms had a strng ass arm, and even some of his stuff was ugly.  If you're gonna declare Grads' arm weak, you gotta call Chris' out too.  I've seen the short passes too, we all have.    And for the most part they didn't look weak, they just looked off, just like a lot of Chris' stuff short.  It's an accuracy/timing/comfort issue.  Chis had by no means a weak arm, and Grads may not be in Chris' league in that category, but it isn't a lack of strength.
 

[mjs020294]

Timing is key in most sports.  Simms doesn’t have a great deep ball because he has strong arms; he does it with technique and timing.   Sergio Garcia is probably 140lbs but he can hit a golf ball further than many guys twice his weight.  If a guys timing is out it can have a major detrimental effect. 

Like others have said Grads isn’t under throwing his receivers, he is over throwing or missing them wide.  He has thrown deep balls in preseason and against the Saints, and passes OK in training so his arm is more than adequate.  I think he just needs time to fully understand the playbook, build up repertoire with his receivers and get to grips with the speed on the NFL.

[ufojoe]

Boid, I hae seen 7 of 8 quarters of the last two games. I just don't see what you see.
I see a rookie who is trying hard not to make a mistake and learning all the ins and
outs of being an NFL QB. Once he's comfortable at the position, then we can really
see what kind of QB he will be. I'm assuming he will improve like most rookies do
woth time. If not, he'll be gone.

[fbickley]

4th quarter comebacks are not always a good sign. That means you are not getting it done for 3 quarters.

BAM!

Winner!

Except that was what made Simms so popular last year too.  Simms didn't address his biggest problem in batted balls last year.  We'll see if Grads can address his long ball this year.  But as for Simms, he won't be starting for anyone next year, and definately not us.  We'll probably see him in the league, but with 3 years under Gruden, to give this kind of performance and show the lack of instincts he did is dissapointing to say the least.  The kid may bounce back, but it may have to be with another team, as he has lost this teams' confidence.  That is why he most likely won't be back, unless there isn't another servicable healthy vetran like Fiedler out there.

[Boid Fink]

Boid, I hae seen 7 of 8 quarters of the last two games. I just don't see what you see.
I see a rookie who is trying hard not to make a mistake and learning all the ins and
outs of being an NFL QB. Once he's comfortable at the position, then we can really
see what kind of QB he will be. I'm assuming he will improve like most rookies do
woth time. If not, he'll be gone.

Well I guess we just have differing perspectives.  He seems to be innaccurate on someof his short throws as well.  Maybe it is timing.  Whatever the reason, it needs correction quickly.

His deep balls are not good, yet. 

I just hope he improves exponentially from game to game, and just cuts loose this upcoming game.