The case for Gaines Adams

[CeriousBuc]

I'll let you do the research because I don't have time right now, but I'm not alone in seeing that the guy takes plays off just like Rice.

Whatever. I've done the research well before hand on Adams, there's no indication of what you state in any scouting reports. Now, if you're referring to the knock that he sometimes get engulfed by offensive linemen due to his size, I could understand where you're coming from. But that isn't the definition of taking plays off. In addition Spencer has the same knocks against him due to his size. Spencer isn't a more complete player as you suggest because he has the same holes in his game that Adams has, almost mirror image when you read them.

[mtnman]

I'll let you do the research because I don't have time right now, but I'm not alone in seeing that the guy takes plays off just like Rice.

Whatever. I've done the research well before hand on Adams, there's no indication of what you state in any scouting reports. Now, if you're referring to the knock that he sometimes get engulfed by offensive linemen due to his size, I could understand where you're coming from. But that isn't the definition of taking plays off. In addition Spencer has the same knocks against him due to his size. Spencer isn't a more complete player as you suggest because he has the same holes in his game that Adams has, almost mirror image when you read them.

Yes we're basically talking apples to apples here.

With all due respect Cerious, I'm not basing this on what all the    scouts are saying. My opinions, and that's what they are, are based on what I see.

I thought you said you did your research. I found this in 10 seconds:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2007/adams_gaines

Negatives: Needs to add bulk and muscle tone, as he has only adequate development … Lacks the brute strength to combat double teams working in-line … Tends to get too frustrated and throttles down when his initial moves fail … Has only adequate recognition for blocking schemes (best when isolated in one-on-one situations) … Has a good burst off the snap, but tires late in games, gradually rising out of his pads rather than exploding … While he shows aggression, he tries use his upper body strength to overpower blockers, rather than swim and rip through the blocks … Lacks consistency on the bull rush, mostly due to slender calves and poor leg drive that prevents him from getting free from the larger offensive tackles … Can handle tough coaching, but will take plays off and works best when someone is lighting a fire under him (has a nonchalant attitude at times) … When a blocker locks on to his jersey, Adams struggles to disengage, lacking the hand strength to overpower (gets frustrated and out of control, taking several plays to settle down) … Blockers have good success in attacking his body when he gets too high in his stance, leaving himself exposed … Not a classic wrap-up tackler, playing more with a drag-down style … Leaves his feet and lunges at ball carriers rather than getting in position and keeping his pads down to wrap and secure … Needs room to operate, as he struggles to shed in tight quarters (only made four tackles inside the red zone in 2006 on 582 plays).

[rowdie]

CJ, Thomas both ahead of Adams.  Longer term wise I'd probably take Russel as well.  I'd also listen to offers to move down and still try to pick up the DT.

[CeriousBuc]

Scouts Inc:

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal bulk and lower body strength. He will need to improve his size in order to consistently take on NFL blockers. He absorbs too many blocks and doesn't do a consistent enough job of disengaging once reached. Needs to play with more consistent leverage versus the run. Has a tendency to come out of his stance too high and will allow linemen to get into his pads too frequently. He needs to become more consistent as a tackler. He will overextend at times and gets caught lunging or leaving his feet too frequently.

NFLDC:

Weaknesses:
Does not have the ideal bulk you look for and needs to add some weight...Does not play the run nearly as well as he does the pass...Needs to get stronger...Can play with better pad level and leverage...Struggles when blockers are able to lock on...Might be a bit of a DE / OLB 'tweener...Becomes somewhat one-dimensional at times...Will get overly aggressive and run himself out of plays...Intelligence???

Gil Brandt from NFL.com:

1. Gaines Adams, Clemson (6-4¾, 258, 4.67)
Adams had a complete workout at the Combine except for lifting. He ran his two 40s in 4.64 and 4.69. He also recorded a 35-inch vertical jump, 9-foot-11 long jump, 4.36 short shuttle and 7.17 three-cone drill. He did 21 bench presses at Clemson's Pro Day on March 13. Adams played eight-man football in high school, playing wide receiver, where he posted 158 catches and 65 touchdowns, and defensive back. His team won the South Carolina state championship in 2000. He also played one year at Fork Union Prep before he entered Clemson in 2002. Adams started at Clemson the past two seasons. In 25 starts, he had 22 sacks and 15 tipped passes. He was named the ACC Defensive Player of the Year in 2006. Adams is an outstanding athlete who is just learning the game. He has outstanding quickness and speed to rush the passer, plays with leverage and effort, and has toughness and plays physically. He does not play the run as well as you would like, but he is getting better. He needs to get stronger, and he will. He is an older player; he will be 24 years old in June. He has traits you look for in pass-rushing ability, and has long arms (34 1/8 inches.)

So you post one, I post three that say otherwise. If taking plays off was a major problem it'd be all over his reports, not just one. We see wording like this: "questions his passion for the game," "questions about his stamina," "Motor runs hot and cold" Those descriptions can be found on players like Quentin Moses, Alan Branch and Marcus Thomas respectively, and where taking plays off is a true concern with each player.

IMO, it's not a concern any where near Rice's problem. For one he's a young player and immaturity will come into play when it concerns giving up on a play. Rice is a veteran, he should no better than to take any play off. Big difference IMO.

[mtnman]

So you post one, I post three that say otherwise. If taking plays off was a major problem it'd be all over his reports, not just one. We see wording like this: "questions his passion for the game," "questions about his stamina," "Motor runs hot and cold" Those descriptions can be found on players like Quentin Moses, Alan Branch and Marcus Thomas respectively, and where taking plays off is a true concern with each player.

IMO, it's not a concern any where near Rice's problem. For one he's a young player and immaturity will come into play when it concerns giving up on a play. Rice is a veteran, he should no better than to take any play off. Big difference IMO.[/b]

Look I respect your opinion based on what you've read.

Is Adams going to be a good plater ? Probably.

Is Spencer going to be a good player ? Probably.

Are we nit-picking at this point ? Obviously.

I just project Spencer as the prospect with the better chance of a successful NFL career, that's all. More importantly, the team  these players end sup on is a huge determining factor in what kind of numbers they'll put up and not necessarily indicative of their true talent etc, ect, etc.

I stand by what I said. I've got about 10 different things going on right now and I'm not going to play the cut n' paste game that many do around here to win you over to my way of thinking.........that's not my goal. I know what the scouts are saying and there are other reports that back up what I'm saying as they've said they see the same things I'm seeing.  You'll either have to take my word on it or as I suggested earlier, find them yourself because I don't have time right now.

[CeriousBuc]

Gotch mtn.

I'm not one to pull up scouting reports, I did it to show where I was coming from regarding what I've read. I'm the type of guy who wants to see production over anything else. Prospects can have bad workouts or be workout warriors. Prospects can have holes in the their game or be build Ford tough. But the one thing that doesn't lie is what they've done on the field. Gaines has that and in addition he has the workout numbers to go along with what I'm saying. You think Spencer will be the better of the two, based on what? They have the same knocks against them concerning size and play against the run. I don't see where you could base that belief. You bring up that Gaines takes plays off, and I'll give you that you found it on one report, but I have to stand my ground and say if it was a major problem, he wouldn't be in the dicussion of being a Top 5 pick. That's all I'm saying.

Look I have no problem with players like a Adams or some people who like the Aaron Rouse pick. However I just want to pick smart here. In a draft with so many great Defensive ends I dont see why we have to spend a first round pick on a Defensive end. We have the chance to pick up a game changing once in a life time WR or a franchise Left Tackle but SOME people would take Adams over the CJ/JT. To me you can get a good End in the late second round in a Abiamiri/McBride who will fill the whole and add a great amount of talent.

Talk about college stats Victor Abiamiri was a few sacks from breaking the Notre Dame sack record...and this guy should be there for us at 2b. No need to get a Gaines Adams #1 when we have a select few players available 1-5 who are at positions that drop off a bunch in talent after their selection...There is no other Joe Thomas here...no Calvin Johsnons. Defensive end is so stocked there will be GREAT ends selected in the 4th round.

Same thing with safety...no need to take a Rouse/Meriweather in the second becuase you still have a Weddle/White/Piscitelli/Wendling/Gattis in later rounds who are AWESOME safties

Not saying I wouldnt take them....however I would use my best judgement in where I take them. With the depth there is at End this year Adams at 4 is a stretch

[mtnman]

Gotch mtn.

I'm not one to pull up scouting reports, I did it to show where I was coming from regarding what I've read. I'm the type of guy who wants to see production over anything else. Prospects can have bad workouts or be workout warriors. Prospects can have holes in the their game or be build Ford tough. But the one thing that doesn't lie is what they've done on the field. Gaines has that and in addition he has the workout numbers to go along with what I'm saying. You think Spencer will be the better of the two, based on what? They have the same knocks against them concerning size and play against the run. I don't see where you could base that belief. You bring up that Gaines takes plays off, and I'll give you that you found it on one report, but I have to stand my ground and say if it was a major problem, he wouldn't be in the dicussion of being a Top 5 pick. That's all I'm saying.

That's cool bro.

I just think Adams has been hyped a bit more than some.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the kid, I'm really not. I like him and I think he's a great prospect- but there are no perfect prospects.

I just think that some team will probably get better value by taking Spencer that's all. I won't cry if the Bucs do pick Adams, I think there are better options though. If they want a Rice type DE, I'd take Spencer. The problem is, there's a good chance Spencer might not be there at 2a. So the Bucs may end up reaching for Adam if that's what they wan, rather than cahnce Spencer being there int he 2nd.

But if you think about it, and you believe what I highlighted in the NFL.com scouting report, are those tendencies more likely to go away or more likely to be intensified at the next level ?

Peace.

[Feel Real Good]

Every speed rusher in the league (Freeney, Rice, etc.) has knocks against playing the run but you know that when you start and you design your defense to take advantage of what he does best and to hide what he doesn't.

[mtnman]

Look I have no problem with players like a Adams or some people who like the Aaron Rouse pick. However I just want to pick smart here. In a draft with so many great Defensive ends I dont see why we have to spend a first round pick on a Defensive end. We have the chance to pick up a game changing once in a life time WR or a franchise Left Tackle but SOME people would take Adams over the CJ/JT. To me you can get a good End in the late second round in a Abiamiri/McBride who will fill the whole and add a great amount of talent.

Talk about college stats Victor Abiamiri was a few sacks from breaking the Notre Dame sack record...and this guy should be there for us at 2b. No need to get a Gaines Adams #1 when we have a select few players available 1-5 who are at positions that drop off a bunch in talent after their selection...There is no other Joe Thomas here...no Calvin Johsnons. Defensive end is so stocked there will be GREAT ends selected in the 4th round.

Same thing with safety...no need to take a Rouse/Meriweather in the second becuase you still have a Weddle/White/Piscitelli/Wendling/Gattis in later rounds who are AWESOME safties

Not saying I wouldnt take them....however I would use my best judgement in where I take them. With the depth there is at End this year Adams at 4 is a stretch

And you don't want to strike too late either becuase you can get a top prospect with that early 2nd. Abiamiri is two tiers below Adams/ Spencer IMO. Yes DE is deep, but it's time the Bucs strike big with an impact player and quit messing around with mid-round d-lineman; it really does waste picks because they don't last on this team.

[mtnman]

Every speed rusher in the league (Freeney, Rice, etc.) has knocks against playing the run but you know that when you start and you design your defense to take advantage of what he does best and to hide what he doesn't.

 
That's one of the reasons Spebcer is the better pick, I believe he's been better against the run. He should also be able to add more bulk without losing burst/ quickness.

[leeroybuc93]

As far as Adams' ability against the run, it's important but is far behind pass rushing for a DE.  That's why I can't understand all this Carricker talk.  We need a pass rusher, not a balanced DE.  Balanced would be nice if it was a Julius Peppers type of balance, but short of that I'll take a Simeon Rice over a Justin Smith any day.

[Feel Real Good]

As far as Adams' ability against the run, it's important but is far behind pass rushing for a DE. That's why I can't understand all this Carricker talk. We need a pass rusher, not a balanced DE. Balanced would be nice if it was a Julius Peppers type of balance, but short of that I'll take a Simeon Rice over a Justin Smith any day.

Well said.

[CeriousBuc]

As far as Adams' ability against the run, it's important but is far behind pass rushing for a DE. That's why I can't understand all this Carricker talk. We need a pass rusher, not a balanced DE. Balanced would be nice if it was a Julius Peppers type of balance, but short of that I'll take a Simeon Rice over a Justin Smith any day.

Correct. All of the so called speed rushers in this years draft have the same holes if you compare them side by side they all get knocked for getting swallowed by offensive linemen and not shedding blocks adequately to be a major threat in the run defense department. Of course we don't normally ask our RDE to be anything more than sound against the run. Spencer may be a value if available with our second pick, but not only is he less of a speed rusher, but he carries the same knock against him in the run department that Adams has. One guy that I like is Charles Johnson, there's a guy with similar explosiveness as Gaines but more of a threat versus the run.

[mtnman]

Johnson is a better all around DE.

Spencer should do as well and probably be better as a pass rusher than Adams IHMO.