What the Gruden haters dont want to admit or are not smart enough to realize

Among active (recently active) coaches Jon Gruden holds his own in career Winning % with the best

Jon Gruden
73-55= 57%

Bill Parcells
163-123-1= 57%

Bill Belichick
99-77= 56%

Brian Billick
102-50= 55%

Bill Cowher
141-82-1= 63%

Tony Dungy
102-58= 64%

You say wow Cowher and Dungy have a bigger winning % by a good margin than Gruden...ok well lets look where it really matters then

Playoffs

Jon Gruden
5-3= 63%

Tony Dungy
5-8= 38%

Bill Cowher
12-9= 58%

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

[keeponbucn]

Don't post facts! Jon Gruden is the anti-christ!

He's going to take down this franchise piece by piece! He'll never give the A-train the ball, he's worthless! He won with Dungy's team in 2002 and he won with Art Shells team in Oakland.

[dalbuc]

7

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

Well since one playoff run (2002) accounts for most of those wins, he's not money in the playoffs. His two highly touted Raiders teams Dungied it up in the playoffs and then he choked on a hairball to a terrible WAS team in Tampa.

As to "give Jon the players he needs to win with" doesn't say much for him as a coach. That is the Phil Jackson road to fame and fortune, give me MJ+Pippen or Kobe + Shaq and I'm a god, make me coach with lesser talent and I get bounced in the first round. I ask my coaches to coach up the talent not just ride the talent to where they want to go. Gruden does appear to be a function of the talent more so than most coaches. Give him good players and he's good, give him mediocre players and he's, well actually, bad. Again, the bigger issue is the way Gruden loses control of the bobsled and totally bottoms out his team recently.  People will toss out Bellichek's CLE years but at least he flubbed early in his career and has gotten better whereas Gruden has regressed on that front. Cowher/Shanny/Belliechk have dealt with major injury issues but never crash landed the way Gruden has.

<insert usual cry and whine about your pick of lame excuses for Gruden here>

The funny think is how the gooberville residents are clammering for Dungy and Cowher....who sport a 38% and a 58% winning % in the playoffs

I guess those division championships and one and dones were sooooo rewarding

7

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

Well since one playoff run (2002) accounts for most of those wins, he's not money in the playoffs. His two highly touted Raiders teams Dungied it up in the playoffs and then he choked on a hairball to a terrible WAS team in Tampa.

As to "give Jon the players he needs to win with" doesn't say much for him as a coach. That is the Phil Jackson road to fame and fortune, give me MJ+Pippen or Kobe + Shaq and I'm a god, make me coach with lesser talent and I get bounced in the first round. I ask my coaches to coach up the talent not just ride the talent to where they want to go. Gruden does appear to be a function of the talent more so than most coaches. Give him good players and he's good, give him mediocre players and he's, well actually, bad. Again, the bigger issue is the way Gruden loses control of the bobsled and totally bottoms out his team recently. People will toss out Bellichek's CLE years but at least he flubbed early in his career and has gotten better whereas Gruden has regressed on that front. Cowher/Shanny/Belliechk have dealt with major injury issues but never crash landed the way Gruden has.

<insert usual cry and whine about your pick of lame excuses for Gruden here>

Take away Tom Brady from Belichck and see where he goes...was it 0-4 with Bledsoe to start???

You cant tell me it was Cowhers magical coaching ability in the superbowl year that got the Steelers the champinship...more Rohlesburger and Hines Ward...he had a average Rothlesburger in 06 and you see where it got him didnt you??

Shannahan has never won it again without Elway

Billick never started winning againtill he got McNair

Dungy was a complete choke job even with Peyton and Marvin....nothing changed with him this year he almost choked it away to Brady once again...Peyton just got off the schnide

[BucLord]

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best..

Gee ya think?

Hey Norv Turners sucked wherever he's gone as a HC, you think he'll have just a little better luck in San Diego?

Of course he will, does'nt mean he's a great coach

Great coaches are able to take average players and turn them into winners, great coaches also draft and rebuild teams.

Jon Grudens been very lucky, if ya wanna talk about being in the right place at the right time, its Jon Gruden.

He can win with good to great players, hell, I could too, in fact so could Ray Perkins. Jon Gruden struggles when he has to take an average team and make them win, in fact he flat out sucks at it.

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best..

Gee ya think?

Hey Norv Turners sucked wherever he's gone as a HC, you think he'll have just a little better luck in San Diego?

Of course he will, does'nt mean he's a great coach

Great coaches are able to take average players and turn them into winners, great coaches also draft and rebuild teams.

Jon Grudens been very lucky, if ya wanna talk about being in the right place at the right time, its Jon Gruden.

He can win with good to great players, hell, I could too, in fact so could Ray Perkins. Jon Gruden struggles when he has to take an average team and make them win, in fact he flat out sucks at it.

Tell me one coach that took an average team...with average players....and win with them...add a rookie QB into that mix as well

Dont tell me New England....Brady has never been average

Bad coaches are measured as having all the talent in the world but failing to mail it in for the trophy...not those that take average players and make them great...the players make themselves great.

Thats were the Gruden haters are wrong....you see the genius of a coach when you have a team like St Louis in the late 1990's have the talent they did and beat the snot out of the league and win the titles they did....**CENSORED** Vermeil is a great coach

You saw a bad coach when Mike Martz took over with the same talent and pulled a massive choke job

Thats where greatness lies

[Feel Real Good]

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

Well one issue is Gruden essentially picked who he wanted to officially be in charge of giving him players and the results have been spotty at best. There's little doubt he can coach up a good team but he's not like some rank and file head coach who has a separate GM to bring in players. Gruden had a major hand in shaping 75% of the roster.

[dalbuc]

Dungy was a complete choke job even with Peyton and Marvin....nothing changed with him this year...Peyton just got off the schnide

I love the last one, doesn't matter. See the problem with your list of total failure is this and you Dungy-bashing dopes will never get this: you can't play it both ways. Dungy was trying to win with Dilfer and King for god's sake. Now if Gruden had that level of QB talent you'd be crying your little heads off about how he had no players and so you can't blame him for his falures. Shouldn't you, using your own bad logic, absolve Dungy, and in fact praise him, for winning as MUCH as he did with such lousy players - not to mention being saddled with that clown McKay? See, I don't think some of your think out the full implications of what you say in terms of your own opinions.

This is my biggest critique of Gruden. Dungy's offenses remain better than Gruden's despite having what should undeniably be considered lesser talent and so Gruden's output looks anemic in terms of wins and output compared to Dungy despite better talent.

As for the "they haven't won it" let's also roll that none of them have ever flopped around like dead fish the way we have. There is a ceiling to achievment that a lack of players hangs on you - there's no doubt. No coach in history would have won a SB with that team we had last year. No one thinks that team we had last year was a Super Bowl contender (well people like you did before the season only now that we failed do you see it so blindly obvious you couldn't have won, nice switch) but it also did not have to be as bad as it was anymore than there was a good reason that 2003 team collapsed to 7-9. You look at the records of the Shanny, Homgren, Billick and Cowher typers and you don't see the kind of top 5 draft picks we've had. That's the big difference. Gruden can deliver the goods, 2005 and 2002 but he also totally drops the ball 2003, 2004, 2006 and that is what makes him so damn maddening to me.

[Pulling Guard]

7

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

Well since one playoff run (2002) accounts for most of those wins, he's not money in the playoffs. His two highly touted Raiders teams Dungied it up in the playoffs and then he choked on a hairball to a terrible WAS team in Tampa.

As to "give Jon the players he needs to win with" doesn't say much for him as a coach. That is the Phil Jackson road to fame and fortune, give me MJ+Pippen or Kobe + Shaq and I'm a god, make me coach with lesser talent and I get bounced in the first round. I ask my coaches to coach up the talent not just ride the talent to where they want to go. Gruden does appear to be a function of the talent more so than most coaches. Give him good players and he's good, give him mediocre players and he's, well actually, bad. Again, the bigger issue is the way Gruden loses control of the bobsled and totally bottoms out his team recently. People will toss out Bellichek's CLE years but at least he flubbed early in his career and has gotten better whereas Gruden has regressed on that front. Cowher/Shanny/Belliechk have dealt with major injury issues but never crash landed the way Gruden has.

<insert usual cry and whine about your pick of lame excuses for Gruden here>

I happen to like Gruden a great deal, but I can't refute anything you say here.

Let's hope things get turned around this year. Anything is possible in the horse manure conference that is the NFC.

Dungy was a complete choke job even with Peyton and Marvin....nothing changed with him this year...Peyton just got off the schnide

I love the last one, doesn't matter. See the problem with your list of total failure is this and you Dungy-bashing dopes will never get this: you can't play it both ways. Dungy was trying to win with Dilfer and King for god's sake. Now if Gruden had that level of QB talent you'd be crying your little heads off about how he had no players and so you can't blame him for his falures. Shouldn't you, using your own bad logic, absolve Dungy, and in fact praise him, for winning as MUCH as he did with such lousy players - not to mention being saddled with that clown McKay? See, I don't think some of your think out the full implications of what you say in terms of your own opinions.

This is my biggest critique of Gruden. Dungy's offenses remain better than Gruden's despite having what should undeniably be considered lesser talent and so Gruden's output looks anemic in terms of wins and output compared to Dungy despite better talent.

As for the "they haven't won it" let's also roll that none of them have ever flopped around like dead fish the way we have. There is a ceiling to achievment that a lack of players hangs on you - there's no doubt. No coach in history would have won a SB with that team we had last year. No one thinks that team we had last year was a Super Bowl contender (well people like you did before the season only now that we failed do you see it so blindly obvious you couldn't have won, nice switch) but it also did not have to be as bad as it was anymore than there was a good reason that 2003 team collapsed to 7-9. You look at the records of the Shanny, Homgren, Billick and Cowher typers and you don't see the kind of top 5 draft picks we've had. That's the big difference. Gruden can deliver the goods, 2005 and 2002 but he also totally drops the ball 2003, 2004, 2006 and that is what makes him so damn maddening to me.

But nothing was different from Cowher...Belichick (missed the playoffs a year after a SB win WITH Brady)...Billick....thats what you dont understand

The coaches call the plays....the players are the ones that go out there and perform. Its not Gruden's fault that Clayton didnt do so well as much as it wasnt Cowher's fault Rothlesburger ran his skull through glass and wasnt playng 100% last year

Gruden didnt bust Simm's spleen...didnt seperate the vertebrae from Allstotts neck...didnt give Caddy a high ankle sprain

Your coaching ability is only measured by the talent you have on the field....was it a mistake to have Grads start?? Well yeah...but I dont see people calling for Tort's head when he messed up and signed Grahme and Burke as his goalies in 05

They suck...he realized that next season and did his best to change that...all is well...what is so different about Gruden in this situation??

I happen to like Gruden a great deal, but I can't refute anything you say here.

Let's hope things get turned around this year. Anything is possible in the horse manure conference that is the NFC.

I did if you read on

[dodda45]

If you don't believe that Gruden was the difference in us wininng the Super Bowl, just watch America's Game and see Lynch and Sapp tell you straight out...Oh, I forgot...Dalbuc knows more about them as coaches then they do...By the way, I would love to know the coaches who have won Super Bowls with no talent...or just win period...Occasionally you will have a surprise team pop up and have a winning season but then often it is just an average team with a weak schedule and a couple of lucky breaks(us two years ago) or team that had much more talent than we actualize realize (like the first 49ers Super Bowl team or the Patriots first Super Bowl wins)...

We have beaten this topic to death...People who have actually coached before or have half a brain or at least no agenda know that personnel has a heck of a lot to do with winning...that plus having good coaches, luck, and not too many injuries as well.  Also, quarterback is pretty important...Every single coach that Dalbuc has mentioned has had quarterbacks that have been light years ahead of the quarterbacks Gruden has had...Even Plummer for Shanahan was better than what we have had...and when Gruden had the same QB as Shanahan in Griese...we actually played pretty well (until he got hurt)...The only time Gruden has had a legitimate QB was with Gannon and Brad Johnson(though on serious downside of his career) and if memory serves me right,  Gruden did pretty well with both...Oh, yeah...remember that Dalbuc does not think that having players in their prime helps either...You can just stack your offense with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players (with a crappy QB) and then have a bunch of 30+ defenders...and still win...

[benir0]

<insert usual cry and whine about your pick of lame excuses for Gruden here>

Well, once one crosses a certain line in either direction (pro- ir anti-Gruden), one can be considered silly.

I'm a firm believer that the truth is somewhere in the middle.  Gruden needs to perform this season.

You can go back and forth, but to discount the fact that he won a Super Bowl is ridiculous.  Sorry.

Discount his playoff record because 3 of his wins came in one run that culminated in a SB championship?   WHAT?!?!?

To criticize him because he doesn't win with a poor team is ridiculous.  The whole point of the listing the winning percentages of coaches is to point out his track record in the most accessible measurable manner.  If certain coaches never completely "crashed and burned," then they mush be having a series of incredibly mediocre seasons to bring themselves down to Gruden's lowly percentage.

When was the last time a team won a Super Bowl without great talent?  Ummm...oh, that's right: never.


Bottom Line: Gruden is a guy whose star was incredibly bright 5 years ago, with a good track record, but who really has something to prove at this point in his career.  The last 3-4 years have not been stellar.  He really needs to prove that he is the coach we want going forward, as I am not sold at this point.

Alot of what you said is just as ridiculious as what those at the other end of the spectrum have said, though, dal.

[umguy1999]

7

My point is when you give Jon the players he needs to win with...like he had in Oakland...like he had in his first year in TB his track record is very successful....and even to this point his Winning % ranks up there with the best...plus when you get him to the playoffs he shows that he winns at a higher % than some of those coaches that wn big only in the regular season

Well since one playoff run (2002) accounts for most of those wins, he's not money in the playoffs. His two highly touted Raiders teams Dungied it up in the playoffs and then he choked on a hairball to a terrible WAS team in Tampa.

As to "give Jon the players he needs to win with" doesn't say much for him as a coach. That is the Phil Jackson road to fame and fortune, give me MJ+Pippen or Kobe + Shaq and I'm a god, make me coach with lesser talent and I get bounced in the first round. I ask my coaches to coach up the talent not just ride the talent to where they want to go. Gruden does appear to be a function of the talent more so than most coaches. Give him good players and he's good, give him mediocre players and he's, well actually, bad. Again, the bigger issue is the way Gruden loses control of the bobsled and totally bottoms out his team recently. People will toss out Bellichek's CLE years but at least he flubbed early in his career and has gotten better whereas Gruden has regressed on that front. Cowher/Shanny/Belliechk have dealt with major injury issues but never crash landed the way Gruden has.

<insert usual cry and whine about your pick of lame excuses for Gruden here>

Take away Tom Brady from Belichck and see where he goes...was it 0-4 with Bledsoe to start???

You cant tell me it was Cowhers magical coaching ability in the superbowl year that got the Steelers the champinship......he had a average Rothlesburger in 06 and you see where it got him didnt you??

Shannahan has never won it again without Elway

Billick never started winning againtill he got McNair

Dungy was a complete choke job even with Peyton and Marvin....nothing changed with him this year he almost choked it away to Brady once again...Peyton just got off the schnide

"more Rohlesburger.."  42% competion 2 INT's and no TDs in the SB, sure you want to use him as a referance?

How many top 5 picks did any of those guys get in recent years? we got 2 since Gruden has been here. If you want to bring up Brady, then it takes away your argument for Gruden in Oakland because he had Gannon who was about as productive as a QB can be., from 1999-2002 his stats best Brady. You can twist stats any way you want, the fact is we have a, 7-9, 5-11 and a 4-12 seasons under Gruden, we had a fluke 11-5 season, and our SB year which we had a large advantage of playing his old team (That used HIS system), and he had our D pretty much in their prime and at the top of their game.