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Groovatron

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« #30 : October 31, 2006, 08:20:32 AM »

It seems to me those who bash are bashing because the game/play calling wasn't what they would do. However, IMO, the duty of the head coach/play caller is to get his team in a position to succeed. And Gruden did that last game. He didn't do it by a balanced attack of equal runs and passes but he did it. It is up to the players to make the plays and they did not do that. I don't care if Gruden wants to run the wish-bone offense all game. If it puts the players in a position to succeed he has done his job.

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« #31 : October 31, 2006, 09:14:54 AM »

Come on Dal....you are too smart for this. You gotta admit that expectations from this group have to be tempered because of the inexperience. You were in Dallas for the Aikman era debut weren't you? The 1-15 start?

I was, I know that rookie QB's don't play well. I'm all over the place saying that.

I also know that every other known coach in the NFL tries to protect rookie QB's. Gruden has had his throw an average of 37.5 times per game with Gradkowksi - and in no game were we ever out of it, plus he had the same disfunction when Simms was in as well. I mean he's channelling Andy Reid all of a sudden. in his play calling. I was huge on Caddy as our draft pick last year because I thought Gruden was the run first coach....and last year he was. I thought last year was, above and beyond the SB year, his best coaching job ever because he massaged a team with not too much talent into an 11-5 record. In that season he understood Simms was a weak link and covered up that problem wonderfully and put Simms in a great situation to succeed. Fast forward, I thought he did a lousy job of that with Simms this year and he's doing an even worse job with Gradkowski. Contrary to what I'm sure are several "Why don't you go be a Falcons/Colts fan" posts further down the food chain, I don't blame Gruden for everything but I equally will not absolve him for all his sins when I think he's done a poor job.

I think you also have to look at two other things that transcend this season:
1. The up and down Bucs. This club wins a super bowl, has the worst two post-Super Bowl seasons ever, bounces back to 11-5 and now seems primed for a 5-11 year. Total lack of consistency in results.
2. Total failure to build a decent offense. Seriously, I kid you not. Gruden's offense in his years here are no better, and might be worse, than Dungy's last offenses in Tampa. He's got better talent so spare me the "draft picks and cap" excuse becuase Dungy had trash on that side of the ball. I thought Tony's offense was an abomination before the football gods but if that offense was so awful, then I have to look at what John has rolled onto the field and say it is equally abominable.
Do you think that Gruden should be fired??


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keeponbucn

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« #32 : October 31, 2006, 09:21:56 AM »

Come on Dal....you are too smart for this. You gotta admit that expectations from this group have to be tempered because of the inexperience. You were in Dallas for the Aikman era debut weren't you? The 1-15 start?

I was, I know that rookie QB's don't play well. I'm all over the place saying that.

I also know that every other known coach in the NFL tries to protect rookie QB's. Gruden has had his throw an average of 37.5 times per game with Gradkowksi - and in no game were we ever out of it, plus he had the same disfunction when Simms was in as well. I mean he's channelling Andy Reid all of a sudden. in his play calling. I was huge on Caddy as our draft pick last year because I thought Gruden was the run first coach....and last year he was. I thought last year was, above and beyond the SB year, his best coaching job ever because he massaged a team with not too much talent into an 11-5 record. In that season he understood Simms was a weak link and covered up that problem wonderfully and put Simms in a great situation to succeed. Fast forward, I thought he did a lousy job of that with Simms this year and he's doing an even worse job with Gradkowski. Contrary to what I'm sure are several "Why don't you go be a Falcons/Colts fan" posts further down the food chain, I don't blame Gruden for everything but I equally will not absolve him for all his sins when I think he's done a poor job.

I think you also have to look at two other things that transcend this season:
1. The up and down Bucs. This club wins a super bowl, has the worst two post-Super Bowl seasons ever, bounces back to 11-5 and now seems primed for a 5-11 year. Total lack of consistency in results.
2. Total failure to build a decent offense. Seriously, I kid you not. Gruden's offense in his years here are no better, and might be worse, than Dungy's last offenses in Tampa. He's got better talent so spare me the "draft picks and cap" excuse becuase Dungy had trash on that side of the ball. I thought Tony's offense was an abomination before the football gods but if that offense was so awful, then I have to look at what John has rolled onto the field and say it is equally abominable.

you make valid points Dal and I won't bring up the draft pick garbage. Gruden's lack of offense can be attributed to one thing, the QB. You HAVE TO have a quality QB to run an offense effectively and the Bucs have had too many different QB's over the past 4 years. While Johnson got benched the other QB changes have come as a result of injury Dal. YOu can't discredit that fact and Gruden's PROVEN that his offense is rediculous with a good QB.

I'm as disgusted as all are about the offense, think what Gruden feels right now. He had the most potent offense in OAK only to come into to Tampa and stink up the joint for a few years. He's going nuts right now and we know he'll work hard to correct the issue. It's tough when your starting QB goes down EVERY year.

 

BucsGuru

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« #33 : October 31, 2006, 09:27:16 AM »

Johnson got benched because of last night.

ufojoe

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« #34 : October 31, 2006, 09:51:34 AM »

Get Gruden a consistently good QB and you'll see a consistently good offense. IMO.

Grads may be the guy. Maybe not.

Chris was not.

Griese showed promise but those INTs killed us.

How people expect much more than we're seeing right now with a newbie QB is
just amazing. On one hand, Dalbuc says that his expectations of the rookie QB
are very low. Then, in the same paragraph, he points out the problems with
the offense. Sorry, but with a steady QB, this offense does fine. Simms had
streaks of very good QB play and look what it did for us last year. Too bad
he was inconsistent too.

keeponbucn

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« #35 : October 31, 2006, 09:54:30 AM »

Get Gruden a consistently good QB and you'll see a consistently good offense. IMO.

Grads may be the guy. Maybe not.

Chris was not.

Griese showed promise but those INTs killed us.

How people expect much more than we're seeing right now with a newbie QB is
just amazing. On one hand, Dalbuc says that his expectations of the rookie QB
are very low. Then, in the same paragraph, he points out the problems with
the offense. Sorry, but with a steady QB, this offense does fine. Simms had
streaks of very good QB play and look what it did for us last year. Too bad
he was inconsistent too.


it's as simple as that. Not sure why some can't grasp it....

CeriousBuc

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« #36 : October 31, 2006, 10:00:09 AM »

As bad as you may feel the gameplan was, Dal, you would be blind to say there were not oppurtunities to take advantage of during that game. I will continue to point out that 4 drops (including Caddy's fumble) really killed us Sunday. The play calling was pretty balanced in the 1st quarter, 9 passes versus 6 runs, all amounting to 5 3 and outs. Then Gruden took some shots downfield with the wind at our backs and down 14 points in the second quarter. The play calling was spot on IMO, as the two drops by Galloway and one by Clayton should have resulted in at least 14 points. With both of Galloway's drops, he was behind the deepest defender and I maintain that he scores on at least on of those passes and put the team in a position to score on the other. Gruden calls the plays but he cannot catch the ball. Go into halftime with a 10-14 score or tie score and the second half is an entirely diffreent game.

But down 14 in the 3rd quarter and with the OL not generating any push at times what's a coach to do?

I wish he had run the ball more, but I also wish our LG and C weren't liabilities in the run blocking department. Gruden is responsible, no doubt about that. At the same time same time, the callls that were made would have kept us in the game if not for bad execution by our receivers.

alldaway

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« #37 : October 31, 2006, 10:00:49 AM »

Let me just ramble a bit:

The offense:  The standard on offense that Gruden has to exceed around here is Les Steckel.  If Gruden can not put together an offense that can exceed that standard next year I can see the Glazers firing him.  But right now the Bucs have a young offense so I am taking a wait and see approach.

Bruce Allen:  I do not think he is a puppet.  The Redskins have never been the same once they let Bruce Allen go and Marty.  Bruce did a good job of managing the Skins and Marty had them on the right track even though people did not see it that way. The Redskins never have recovered since that point they let Bruce go.

Bruce joined the Raiders and instantly turned around that team with Gruden.  Even when Gruden left Bruce Allen put together a solid team with Callahan.  Now in Bruce's stint with the Raiders he did not have total control becuase of a hands on owner.  But in the end he managed the cap.  Without him now the Raiders lack direction and are in shambles.

Bruce Allen is a good GM and is not a puppet contrary to popular belief.  When Gruden left Bruce Allen did not stop being an excellent GM.  If Gruden is fired after 2007 I can see the Glazers retaining Bruce. 

Kromer:  The improvement on the o-line is becuase of him not becuase of Muir.  It is pretty clear to me now.  Not to mention that the Raiders o-line is in shambles ever since Kromer and Callahan left.  No disrespect to Shell and Slater as both are very good o-line coaches and Hall of Fame o-lineman but they have a lot of work to do to rebuild that o-line back in Oakland.  I would be deeply sadened to see Kromer go and Muir stay.




BucsNBullsBaby

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« #38 : October 31, 2006, 10:05:31 AM »

To understand the emotion surrounding those that want Grudens head is simple - the expectation of defending our divisional title were high.  This year's performance has been poor.  Put the 2 together and you have a lot of upset fans.  Same after the SB year.

But hindsight is always 20-20.  If we were to say back in training camp that our starting qb would only play the first 4 games, the veteran guys who were brought in to solidify the qb wouldn't pan out and a rookie 6 rounder would be strating, that the rookie T and G would be starting within a few games, and the starting UT would be gone, what would the expectations be?  

People want to look at Grudens moves with blinders - if he brings in a FA veteran, people complain he only wants old guys.  If he starts some rooks, people say he should have brought in "experienced depth".  You can't have it both ways!

I think Gru is working hard, and doing a pretty damn good job, of transforming the team given all the variables.  He's a young talent, and yes will make mistakes, but he has tremendous upside and the ability to coach a long time in the league.  I hope that its here.
 

alldaway

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« #39 : October 31, 2006, 10:09:29 AM »

Consistency at QB is a HUGE reason why the offense has failed to produce points over years.  That is why it is my desire to see the QB carousel end.  From Brad, Griese, Simms, Grads, Luke, etc.

If Gruden continues this QB carousel and his offense continues to fail to produce points that exceeds Les Steckel's offense (led by Shaun King) then Gruden's future looks dim.  That is why it is key that Gruden sticks with a QB that he is comfortable with.  With Grads it looks like that way as he is opening it up.  Unfortunately too much and at the wrong times of a football game for the rook.


buckit

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« #40 : October 31, 2006, 12:01:34 PM »

Get an idea of the game of football. Get a clue. Get a grip.

Have the stones to tell the forum WHO you'd replace him with!

Easy to sit back as bust a guy's balls but offer nothing in terms of a solution.

Most of you bashers weren't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye when this franchise was born. You have no idea of the losing that many of us others had to deal with. And frankly, the 2006 Bucs in their current state are FAR better than some of the squads of the mid to late 80's.

You same people ragged him for bringing in over-the-hill veterans. Now he has conceded to the youth movement and you same raggers don't have the patience to let the kids develop.

In short, some of you will never be happy. You'd find something to gripe about even if the Bucs went through a 16-0 season.

I am more disappointed in the way some of you have reacted than I am to ANY of the 5 losses this season.

As mentioned in another thread, I say, "Go ahead and get off the bandwagon now." Don't hang around until the youth comes together as a major winner and then say crap like "I knew it was only a matter of time before Gruden put this together". You know you'll say this. You always do. Some of you do more backtracking than a detective in a murder case.









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Please sell the team to Eddie DeBartolo.

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CurtR1995

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« #41 : October 31, 2006, 12:26:12 PM »

Let me just ramble a bit:

The offense: The standard on offense that Gruden has to exceed around here is Les Steckel. If Gruden can not put together an offense that can exceed that standard next year I can see the Glazers firing him. But right now the Bucs have a young offense so I am taking a wait and see approach.

Bruce Allen: I do not think he is a puppet. The Redskins have never been the same once they let Bruce Allen go and Marty. Bruce did a good job of managing the Skins and Marty had them on the right track even though people did not see it that way. The Redskins never have recovered since that point they let Bruce go.

Bruce joined the Raiders and instantly turned around that team with Gruden. Even when Gruden left Bruce Allen put together a solid team with Callahan. Now in Bruce's stint with the Raiders he did not have total control becuase of a hands on owner. But in the end he managed the cap. Without him now the Raiders lack direction and are in shambles.

Bruce Allen is a good GM and is not a puppet contrary to popular belief. When Gruden left Bruce Allen did not stop being an excellent GM. If Gruden is fired after 2007 I can see the Glazers retaining Bruce.

Kromer: The improvement on the o-line is becuase of him not becuase of Muir. It is pretty clear to me now. Not to mention that the Raiders o-line is in shambles ever since Kromer and Callahan left. No disrespect to Shell and Slater as both are very good o-line coaches and Hall of Fame o-lineman but they have a lot of work to do to rebuild that o-line back in Oakland. I would be deeply sadened to see Kromer go and Muir stay.





My Take:

Offense:  Probably the worst scheme in football right now other than maybe Tom Walsh, who has been out of football since 1994.  We have easily the most predictable offense in the game at the very least; stop the first 5 rushing attempts, then defend the short pass.  Short passes to the backs and TE's with their backs to the D?  Are you kidding?  How can a play like that succeed?  Gruden's offense is supposed to be complicated.  Here is a tip to our players who can't understand it; call any opposing defensive coordinator, as they can figure it out in 15 minutes.  Clayton had a very nice first year, then regressed.  Caddy had a very nice first year, then regressed.  Beunning had a nice first year then regressed.  Griese had a nice first year then regressed.  Simms had a nice first year then regressed.  BJ had a nice first year, then regressed.  Something is very wrong with this offense.  

Allen:  We will have to agree to disagree here.  Both on the puppet thing, and the ability for Allen to be a real GM.  He is at best a paper pusher.  At worst a GM wanna be without the player evaluation ability.   The contract for Steussie?  I would love to know who we were competing against that we had to give Steussie a $3.7MM SB.  The contract to IO.  The contract to Deese.  The joke of a contract to Mario Edwards.  The contract to Gold that forced us to cut him or pay him way above market value.  The 04 and 05 drafts are in serious doubt despite having a compliment of draft picks.  

Kromer: The Oline is still a disaster by NFL standards.  We can't run the ball, or pass it.  We have some higher draft picks to be sure, but they are far from a declared top 10 line by anyone's standards.  At best Kromer is unproven.  At worst he is ever bit as bad as Muir.  The downfall of Beunning has to be disturbing.  Even you point out that Mahan shouldn't be starting, but in fact is.  

JasonOfthetower

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« #42 : October 31, 2006, 12:51:57 PM »

I think Gruden lost the game on Sunday. I thought the gameplan was ludicrous. I understand what Gru was saying about having the wind and the Giants providing some opportunities but I honestly believe he panicked. You can't ask a rookie QB to save the team in that situation. You just can't. Hell, the Giants wouldn't do it with Eli....why the hell did we do it with Bruce?

They gave the ball over and over to Tiki and when Tiki was tired, they gave it to the Jacobs kid. The limited Eli's opportunities and thus his mistakes. Did they move up and down the field? No, but they kept themselves out of trouble and continued to control the clock and field position.

A back like Cadillac will not make much impact on 8 carries. He needs at least 15 to get a feel for the game and 20-25 to be dominant. When you have an elite back, as we have been told Cadillac is, you don't throw the ball 40 frakking times with your rookie QB.

With that said, I think Jon had a bad game and didn't handle the variables very well. It happens. This L is definitely Jon's. However, does that make him an idiot or a terrible coach? No, every coach has a bad game. Every QB has a bad game. Every player has a bad game. I know Ifs mean nothing...but if Galloway makes those two grabs and we get scores on those drives...and Clayton holds on to his touchdown pass - is Gruden still an idiot?

Of course not. It boils down to winning and losing. We lost, we're 2-5 and opportunity to climb back into this season, pun intended, blew away from us. Instead of winning one game and being back at .500, now we have to win three straight to get there. It was a tough, dissapointing, ugly loss.

It sucks. However, I believe in Gruden and while Bruce is testing my faith a bit, I still believe in him, too. If the Bucs close out the Saints this week, they finish the second quarter 3-1....something none of us thought was remotely possible, especially with Chris out and Bruce in. The defense has played well in two out of the last three games against high powered offenses (and I would submit that despite the yardage amassed by Philly, the d played very opportunistic and won that game for us too).

Wins hide blemishes. We know they're there but we ignore them because we won. Losses magnify those deficiences.

If the Bucs finish the second quarter 3-1, they're a 3-5 football team. They add another 3-1 roll...(At Carolina, Washington, at Dallas, and at Pittsburgh) none of the four are unbeatable and the Bucs can compete with these teams (yes, even Pittsburgh)....its possible. You're talking 6-6. Then in the final quarter you have (Atlanta, at Chi, at Clev, Seattle)...we all accept there is no way this football team currently has any hope of competing against Chicago. Which would mean to end the season with a winning record, Tampa Bay will need to continue to make the Falcons their beyotch, beat a bad Cleveland team on the road, and then face Seattle...who is suffering a huge SB hangover (not quite as bad as Pitt, but its there).

Yeah, its a long shot...and the Bucs have a better chance at finishing 5-11 than 9-7....but Sunday withstanding, I see this team growing together and getting better.

It all begins Sunday with the Saints. The Bucs can beat this team - they just need their coach to get over this bad game, the offensive players to reconcentrate themselves and the defense to sustain its improvements in tackling.

Gruden isn't going anywhere...especially with a cap friendly year coming in 07.


alldaway

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« #43 : October 31, 2006, 01:00:13 PM »

Let me just ramble a bit:

The offense: The standard on offense that Gruden has to exceed around here is Les Steckel. If Gruden can not put together an offense that can exceed that standard next year I can see the Glazers firing him. But right now the Bucs have a young offense so I am taking a wait and see approach.

Bruce Allen: I do not think he is a puppet. The Redskins have never been the same once they let Bruce Allen go and Marty. Bruce did a good job of managing the Skins and Marty had them on the right track even though people did not see it that way. The Redskins never have recovered since that point they let Bruce go.

Bruce joined the Raiders and instantly turned around that team with Gruden. Even when Gruden left Bruce Allen put together a solid team with Callahan. Now in Bruce's stint with the Raiders he did not have total control becuase of a hands on owner. But in the end he managed the cap. Without him now the Raiders lack direction and are in shambles.

Bruce Allen is a good GM and is not a puppet contrary to popular belief. When Gruden left Bruce Allen did not stop being an excellent GM. If Gruden is fired after 2007 I can see the Glazers retaining Bruce.

Kromer: The improvement on the o-line is becuase of him not becuase of Muir. It is pretty clear to me now. Not to mention that the Raiders o-line is in shambles ever since Kromer and Callahan left. No disrespect to Shell and Slater as both are very good o-line coaches and Hall of Fame o-lineman but they have a lot of work to do to rebuild that o-line back in Oakland. I would be deeply sadened to see Kromer go and Muir stay.





My Take:

Offense:  Probably the worst scheme in football right now other than maybe Tom Walsh, who has been out of football since 1994.  We have easily the most predictable offense in the game at the very least; stop the first 5 rushing attempts, then defend the short pass.  Short passes to the backs and TE's with their backs to the D?  Are you kidding?  How can a play like that succeed?  Gruden's offense is supposed to be complicated.  Here is a tip to our players who can't understand it; call any opposing defensive coordinator, as they can figure it out in 15 minutes.  Clayton had a very nice first year, then regressed.  Caddy had a very nice first year, then regressed.  Beunning had a nice first year then regressed.  Griese had a nice first year then regressed.  Simms had a nice first year then regressed.  BJ had a nice first year, then regressed.  Something is very wrong with this offense. 

Allen:  We will have to agree to disagree here.  Both on the puppet thing, and the ability for Allen to be a real GM.  He is at best a paper pusher.  At worst a GM wanna be without the player evaluation ability.   The contract for Steussie?  I would love to know who we were competing against that we had to give Steussie a $3.7MM SB.  The contract to IO.  The contract to Deese.  The joke of a contract to Mario Edwards.  The contract to Gold that forced us to cut him or pay him way above market value.  The 04 and 05 drafts are in serious doubt despite having a compliment of draft picks. 

Kromer: The Oline is still a disaster by NFL standards.  We can't run the ball, or pass it.  We have some higher draft picks to be sure, but they are far from a declared top 10 line by anyone's standards.  At best Kromer is unproven.  At worst he is ever bit as bad as Muir.  The downfall of Beunning has to be disturbing.  Even you point out that Mahan shouldn't be starting, but in fact is. 

Offense:  The regression probably has to do with not having consistency at the QB position.  This is where Gruden has to take some blame as he has to find a QB that he likes and stick with them.  Not many teams win consistently with a QB carousel and it hard to have a top flight offense year in and year out with change at QB.  At least with Steckel he was able to maximize King's abilities and produce with his offense.

Allen:  A $ 3 million signing bonus is chump change in today's NFL.  If that is the biggest blemish on Allen's record I am not worried.  If Allen had traded a first round pick for Abraham and gave him that much signing bonus for him to only end up injured I think that would be a lot more serious.

Kromer:  The Bucs o-line has only seen improvement under Lomas and Kromer (both years the Bucs had winning seasons in recent years).  This year Muir is fiddling with the o-line (starting Mahan) and the results speak for themselves.




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« #44 : October 31, 2006, 01:07:04 PM »

Get Gruden a consistently good QB and you'll see a consistently good offense. IMO.

Grads may be the guy. Maybe not.

Chris was not.

Griese showed promise but those INTs killed us.

How people expect much more than we're seeing right now with a newbie QB is
just amazing. On one hand, Dalbuc says that his expectations of the rookie QB
are very low. Then, in the same paragraph, he points out the problems with
the offense. Sorry, but with a steady QB, this offense does fine. Simms had
streaks of very good QB play and look what it did for us last year. Too bad
he was inconsistent too.

Good thoughts, Joe. If the passes are caught, and we don't turn the ball over, we have an excellant chance to win. These naysayers make me sick - and the worst thing is hearing them mouth off AT the game, when we still have a chance to win.
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