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keeponbucn

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#45 : May 22, 2007, 04:10:00 PM

I don't think the Eagles has the most talent, but their O-line was much better than ours, and our HB ran for under 800 yards,

Being the educated football guy that you are don't you think having a rookie QB at the helm contributed to Caddy's down season? I ceetainly do, hell, running for 800yrds with each team's sole purpose to beat you down so that you can put the ball in a scrub QB's hands is pretty damn good, IMO.

Garcia will make Caddy and the OL better with quicker decision-making. It's going to prevent opposing defenses from crowding the box without any fear of the QB hurting them. It's going to be a huge difference, enormous. All Garcia has to do is be Garcia and this offense will perform more efficiently.

Again, I'm not saying that Garcia is the second coming but he will help this offense termendously. Simms is a turd, a slow decision-making, long wind-up turd ball back there behind center.

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#46 : May 22, 2007, 05:14:03 PM

My whole point was that Garcia had MORE talent around him than Grad's or Simms, even in Caddys first season when he was going great he still didn't do as well as Westbrook did for Garcia. I think the drops and Caddys bad hands are just inherant to who he is, he may in time get better at it, but as of now his has terrible hands and is not a very good blocker.

You can say or think Simms is a turd, if so that goes to show you how good Gruden is at eveluating talent since he was willing to go into last season with 3 QB's who had less than 30 starts between them with Simms starting and a 6th round rookie back-up. Having said that Simms played well the year before last, with Clayton catching butter fingers and a HB that can't catch or block, and an O-line that couldn't pass block to save their lives. Simms didn't let the ball hit the ground in the endzone, the defense didn't come from behind in those games, and in fact even that season I can't think of a game where the defense didn't allow at least one big play.

You can forget the fact that Simms put us in position to win a playoff game, or that in crunch time he has came through more than once, you can forget that the Falcons gained 300+ yards on the ground against us, or that the Ravens had the top ranked defense, or that with a ruptured spleen Simms put us in good position to beat the Panthers. You just can't overlook that he is 11 years younger than Garcia, and has yet to start in 16 games. Oh and Garcia is not our starting QB, at least wait until he earns the job before you jump on the "Garcia is the mising piece" bus, because our HB won't be getting 700 yards in the air, and T.O is not on this roster!

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#47 : May 22, 2007, 05:46:41 PM

You can say or think Simms is a turd, if so that goes to show you how good Gruden is at eveluating talent since he was willing to go into last season with 3 QB's who had less than 30 starts between them with Simms starting and a 6th round rookie back-up.

You can forget the fact that Simms put us in position to win a playoff game, or that in crunch time he has came through more than once, you can forget that the Falcons gained 300+ yards on the ground against us, or that the Ravens had the top ranked defense, or that with a ruptured spleen Simms put us in good position to beat the Panthers. You just can't overlook that he is 11 years younger than Garcia, and has yet to start in 16 games. Oh and Garcia is not our starting QB, at least wait until he earns the job before you jump on the "Garcia is the mising piece" bus, because our HB won't be getting 700 yards in the air, and T.O is not on this roster!

Where do I start?

The Bucs weren't in a position to get a QB ot they would have, trust me on that. Brees was too much $$$ for the team and there was nobody else worth picking up. It has nothing to do with Gruden's evaluation of talent and everything to do with the resources available the past off-season to shore up the QB position.

How did Simms put the Bucs in position to win a playoff game? By throwing a horrific int to put the Skins on the 6yd line?

Who cares what the Falgoons did on the ground, Simms was awful in that game, AWFUL! The defense only surredered 17pts and Simms couldn't hit ANYHING against a poor Falgoon defense.

The Panthers game? Hell, he put us in that hole, please stop bringing up the spleen like he's some epic warrior. Sure, he FINALLY didn't vomit on himself for a half of football to help the team become competitive.


Simms is awful, and awful NFL QB. He had all last off-season, all TC, all preseason to get his game ready and look what he did, laid turds all over the place putting this team in a hole they couldn't get out of. It was all on Simms, that was one of the worst QB perormances I have ever laid my eyes on. ANYTHING would have looked like improvement.

Garcia is the starting QB this year, there is no question in my mind.

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#48 : May 22, 2007, 06:03:39 PM

NFL Classics recently re-aried the Monday Night Football game (2003) between The Colts and Bucs. The Bucs had Pittman at RB, Keyshawn and Keenan at WR. But the offense was rolling, hard. The X factor? Brad Johnson. It clearly showed just how effective Gruden can be with a veteren QB.
What did Garcia mean to Detroit and Cleveland?
 About as much as Steve Young to the Buccaneers?  LOL  QB is a key position but you still need other players.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#49 : May 22, 2007, 06:12:59 PM

# Brad Johnson   
 
Position: QB
Height: 6-5
Weight: 225
Born: 09/13/1968
College: Florida State
NFL Experience: 16    
 

 Career Stats
|    Game Logs:     01
 02
 03
 04
 05
 06
|    Situational Stats
|    Team Roster


 
Passing
Year   Team   G   GS   Att   Comp   Pct   Yds   YPA   Lg   TD   Int   Tkld   20+   40+   Rate
1992   Minnesota Vikings   0   0   0   0   ---   0   ---   0   0   0   0/0   0   0   ---
1993   Minnesota Vikings   0   0   0   0   ---   0   ---   0   0   0   0/0   0   0   ---
1994   Minnesota Vikings   4   0   37   22   59.5   150   4.05   15   0   0   1/5   0   0   68.5
1995   Minnesota Vikings   5   0   36   25   69.4   272   7.56   39   0   2   2/18   4   0   68.3
1996   Minnesota Vikings   12   8   311   195   62.7   2258   7.26   82   17   10   15/119   27   7   89.4
1997   Minnesota Vikings   13   13   452   275   60.8   3036   6.72   56   20   12   26/164   36   7   84.5
1998   Minnesota Vikings   4   2   101   65   64.4   747   7.40   48   7   5   4/30   7   2   89.0
1999   Washington Redskins   16   16   519   316   60.9   4005   7.72   65   24   13   29/177   62   14   90.0
2000   Washington Redskins   12   11   365   228   62.5   2505   6.86   77   11   15   20/150   23   7   75.7
2001   Tampa Bay Buccaneers   16   16   559   340   60.8   3406   6.09   47   13   11   44/269   34   1   77.7
2002   Tampa Bay Buccaneers   13   13   451   281   62.3   3049   6.76   76   22   6   21/121   32   6   92.9
2003   Tampa Bay Buccaneers   16   16   570   354   62.1   3811   6.69   76   26   21   20/111   37   9   81.5
2004   Tampa Bay Buccaneers   4   4   103   65   63.1   674   6.54   54   3   3   8/55   9   3   79.5
2005   Minnesota Vikings   15   9   294   184   62.6   1885   6.41   80   12   4   23/134   15   6   88.9
2006   Minnesota Vikings   15   14   439   270   61.5   2750   6.26   46   9   15   29/200   36   4   72.0
TOTAL       145   122   4237   2620   61.8   28548   6.74   82   164   117   242/1553   322   66   83.1

VS Jeff Garcia

Passing
Year   Team   G   GS   Att   Comp   Pct   Yds   YPA   Lg   TD   Int   Tkld   20+   40+   Rate
1999   San Francisco 49ers   13   10   375   225   60.0   2544   6.78   62   11   11   15/104   28   7   77.9
2000   San Francisco 49ers   16   16   561   355   63.3   4278   7.63   69   31   10   24/155   59   9   97.6
2001   San Francisco 49ers   16   16   504   316   62.7   3538   7.02   61   32   12   26/114   40   10   94.8
2002   San Francisco 49ers   16   16   528   328   62.1   3344   6.33   76   21   10   17/93   31   7   85.6
2003   San Francisco 49ers   13   13   392   225   57.4   2704   6.90   75   18   13   21/104   35   6   80.1
2004   Cleveland Browns   11   10   252   144   57.1   1731   6.87   99   10   9   24/99   18   8   76.7
2005   Detroit Lions   6   5   173   102   59.0   937   5.42   49   3   6   6/34   11   2   65.1
2006   Philadelphia Eagles   8   6   188   116   61.7   1309   6.96   65   10   2   6/40   16   4   95.8
TOTAL       99   92   2973   1811   60.9   20385   6.86   99   136   73   139/743   238   53   86.4
 
Brad V Jeff - basically a push.  With decent to good talent they did well - when the team was not so good - neither were they. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

umguy1999

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#50 : May 22, 2007, 06:30:52 PM

You can say or think Simms is a turd, if so that goes to show you how good Gruden is at eveluating talent since he was willing to go into last season with 3 QB's who had less than 30 starts between them with Simms starting and a 6th round rookie back-up.

You can forget the fact that Simms put us in position to win a playoff game, or that in crunch time he has came through more than once, you can forget that the Falcons gained 300+ yards on the ground against us, or that the Ravens had the top ranked defense, or that with a ruptured spleen Simms put us in good position to beat the Panthers. You just can't overlook that he is 11 years younger than Garcia, and has yet to start in 16 games. Oh and Garcia is not our starting QB, at least wait until he earns the job before you jump on the "Garcia is the mising piece" bus, because our HB won't be getting 700 yards in the air, and T.O is not on this roster!

Where do I start?

The Bucs weren't in a position to get a QB ot they would have, trust me on that. Brees was too much $$$ for the team and there was nobody else worth picking up. It has nothing to do with Gruden's evaluation of talent and everything to do with the resources available the past off-season to shore up the QB position.

How did Simms put the Bucs in position to win a playoff game? By throwing a horrific int to put the Skins on the 6yd line?

Who cares what the Falgoons did on the ground, Simms was awful in that game, AWFUL! The defense only surredered 17pts and Simms couldn't hit ANYHING against a poor Falgoon defense.

The Panthers game? Hell, he put us in that hole, please stop bringing up the spleen like he's some epic warrior. Sure, he FINALLY didn't vomit on himself for a half of football to help the team become competitive.


Simms is awful, and awful NFL QB. He had all last off-season, all TC, all preseason to get his game ready and look what he did, laid turds all over the place putting this team in a hole they couldn't get out of. It was all on Simms, that was one of the worst QB perormances I have ever laid my eyes on. ANYTHING would have looked like improvement.

Garcia is the starting QB this year, there is no question in my mind.

Don't give me that garbage about no one else out there, talk about epic warrier, how long are you Gruden apologist going to ride the, "there was no one else, we had to bring in Garner, Stussie and the rest of the garbage he brought in, he had no draft picks (yeah he mised out on 4 players boo whoo)..." I know a vet he could have brougt in ummmmmmmmmmmmm GRIESE for one, would have been better than Grad's.  I know they didn't want to pay him, they didn't have money for Brees, all BS, where there is a will there is a way.
Gruden was an OK coach with McKay being a real GM, Gruden was a good Coach and Allen was a good GM when AL Davis was calling the shots. Gruden and Allen as the brains of this outfit are about useless, and the only winning season they can brag about is with the QB who you think is a turd..Oh wait I know defense is the reason we went 11-5 right, the defense was the signal caller in the Falcons, Redskins come from behind wins.

I guess I don't have the talent to disregard facts just to make my point as you seem to do so well. EVERY QB makes mistakes, but in the playoff game that pass that Edel dropped was the game winning pass, regardless of what happend before that.

So to you no matter what its Simms fault, dropped passes, no run support, no pass blocking is all on Simms. I wonder if you will be so fast to blame the QB when Garcia gets a few in the loss column for us.



keeponbucn

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#51 : May 22, 2007, 06:45:07 PM

Don't give me that garbage about no one else out there, talk about epic warrier, how long are you Gruden apologist going to ride the, "there was no one else, we had to bring in Garner, Stussie and the rest of the garbage he brought in, he had no draft picks (yeah he mised out on 4 players boo whoo)..." I know a vet he could have brougt in ummmmmmmmmmmmm GRIESE for one, would have been better than Grad's.  I know they didn't want to pay him, they didn't have money for Brees, all BS, where there is a will there is a way.
Gruden was an OK coach with McKay being a real GM, Gruden was a good Coach and Allen was a good GM when AL Davis was calling the shots. Gruden and Allen as the brains of this outfit are about useless, and the only winning season they can brag about is with the QB who you think is a turd..Oh wait I know defense is the reason we went 11-5 right, the defense was the signal caller in the Falcons, Redskins come from behind wins.

I guess I don't have the talent to disregard facts just to make my point as you seem to do so well. EVERY QB makes mistakes, but in the playoff game that pass that Edel dropped was the game winning pass, regardless of what happend before that.

So to you no matter what its Simms fault, dropped passes, no run support, no pass blocking is all on Simms. I wonder if you will be so fast to blame the QB when Garcia gets a few in the loss column for us.

Few questions,

- In 2005 who would you have brought in for QB? Can you name the QB's on the market?

- Do you know the massive amount of jack Brees got? The Bucs didn't have that money, it's not a matter of BS but fact that you're ignoring. What, did you not believe that the Bucs had negative money to work with?

- Can you please tell me the "facts" in your previous post? All I read is OPINION.

- What role did Allen play in getting the team to have $24M of room this off-season?

- Garner and Stuessie were a few years ago, I thought we were talking about the '05 off-season?


This FO has made mistakes, every FO does, but to render Gruden and Allen useless shows your ignorance more than you'll ever realize. I am a Buc fan first and foremost and won't be labeled a "ista" anything for seeing through the garbage (like your outlook on the team) to see the steps made to improve this roster during the off-season. It was imperative to upgrade the DL, QB, LB depth, grab a LT, LG, and C. They only part that wasn't addressed with draft picks or in FA was the C position.

You're a glum guy, always glass half empty type of cat who can't back up anything with logical, FACTUAL takes to help your argument. It's all good, I'll be here drinking my glass that's half full.

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#52 : May 22, 2007, 07:59:59 PM

Orlando correctly recalls the key factor(s). 


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

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#53 : May 22, 2007, 08:40:22 PM

well hes not Rich Gannon but hes damn close,if he holds up ...his age ...and if the offensive line comes through...he will absolutely flourish in Grudens offense...he fits in here perfectly ...he is made for Grudens offense....if he came here 4 years ago we probably would hve won a lot more games bad line or not ...this guy makes things happen....very elusive....buys time ...and finds the open man.

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#54 : May 23, 2007, 11:48:23 AM

Don't give me that garbage about no one else out there, talk about epic warrier, how long are you Gruden apologist going to ride the, "there was no one else, we had to bring in Garner, Stussie and the rest of the garbage he brought in, he had no draft picks (yeah he mised out on 4 players boo whoo)..." I know a vet he could have brougt in ummmmmmmmmmmmm GRIESE for one, would have been better than Grad's.  I know they didn't want to pay him, they didn't have money for Brees, all BS, where there is a will there is a way.
Gruden was an OK coach with McKay being a real GM, Gruden was a good Coach and Allen was a good GM when AL Davis was calling the shots. Gruden and Allen as the brains of this outfit are about useless, and the only winning season they can brag about is with the QB who you think is a turd..Oh wait I know defense is the reason we went 11-5 right, the defense was the signal caller in the Falcons, Redskins come from behind wins.

I guess I don't have the talent to disregard facts just to make my point as you seem to do so well. EVERY QB makes mistakes, but in the playoff game that pass that Edel dropped was the game winning pass, regardless of what happend before that.

So to you no matter what its Simms fault, dropped passes, no run support, no pass blocking is all on Simms. I wonder if you will be so fast to blame the QB when Garcia gets a few in the loss column for us.

Few questions,

- In 2005 who would you have brought in for QB? Can you name the QB's on the market?

- Do you know the massive amount of jack Brees got? The Bucs didn't have that money, it's not a matter of BS but fact that you're ignoring. What, did you not believe that the Bucs had negative money to work with?

- Can you please tell me the "facts" in your previous post? All I read is OPINION.

- What role did Allen play in getting the team to have $24M of room this off-season?

- Garner and Stuessie were a few years ago, I thought we were talking about the '05 off-season?


This FO has made mistakes, every FO does, but to render Gruden and Allen useless shows your ignorance more than you'll ever realize. I am a Buc fan first and foremost and won't be labeled a "ista" anything for seeing through the garbage (like your outlook on the team) to see the steps made to improve this roster during the off-season. It was imperative to upgrade the DL, QB, LB depth, grab a LT, LG, and C. They only part that wasn't addressed with draft picks or in FA was the C position.

You're a glum guy, always glass half empty type of cat who can't back up anything with logical, FACTUAL takes to help your argument. It's all good, I'll be here drinking my glass that's half full.


As far as facts i think the stats speak for themselves, if you think its an OPINION that
a) Westbrook has better hands than Caddy
b) T.O. is a better weapon than Keyshawn

As far as a Veteran QB I believe I gave ONE example -  BRIAN GRIESE, They didn't resign him because they were either happy with Simms, or McCown, either way it was not a good move. Ty Detmer would have been much better than Grad's he was a FA, I don't remember who else was, but I gave you 2 already. If they really wanted Brees they would have moved some money around, and I am sure many of the vets would have reworked their deals.

The mistakes are made because there is only one opinion in the FO and that is Gruden's, its called checks and balances and the Buc's FO don't have any.

As far as opinions and logic, where is the logic in STARTING a 37 year old QB who never playied in our system, who cares if he played in A WCO, he has not played in ours, unless you think we are so close to a SB that its ok to piece together a team to take a shot. Under Gruden there is no rebuilding, or developing players, he has proven that by bringing in Garner who had just come off knee surgery and was old, he is proving that now by bringing in a QB that is pushing 40.
Unless we do a lot in the playoffs if Garcia starts and plays all 16 games we will have waisted an entire season, because Simms, Grad's or McCown whoever is not a "turd" in your book will have sat on the bench for yet another season.

Here is my OPINION, Gruden is not makig a run for the SB, he is making a run for 8-8 in hopes of keeping his job, he doesn't care how that impacts the development of our future QB, he would rather show off his improved O-line and defense and give the glory to Garcia which in turn gives it to Gruden. Here is another opinion, Garcia won't win the job if its a fair competition. I would be willing to bet that not only Simms will look better in TC, but Grad's will as well. Simms/Grad's/Garcia I think that because Simms has a better arm, and Grad's has a spot in Grudens heart and has youth and probably more mobility than Garcia at this point, at this point i bet Simms can out run Garcia.

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#55 : May 23, 2007, 01:06:47 PM

UM - you need to edit - Griese got a better offer to be a backup than the bucs could make for him as a starter.  Fact.

The mistakes in the FO are a group effort - jmvho.

Getting an NFL quality qb is smart - not for the position but for the progress of the rest of the unit - without one they will never have success.  JMVHO.  He is one of the best available on the FA market last year.  Fact.

This years' bucs are not a SB contender.  But it is not an all or nothing scenario.  The youth movement requires some success to validate their efforts - otherwise you lose their spirit to win.  JMVHO.

Simms stepped on his last year - big time - then got hurt.  He is second not bc he got hurt. 

Grads never had a chance - 6th round rookie qb - limited arm strength and no leadership in the NFL as of yet - he needs a lot of training - a spot in the heart, yea - and on the bench.

Garcia was brought in to carry the buccs through a year or two and help organize and develop the offense.  He is not the long term solution - but he is clearly a viable NFL caliber qb.  Neither of the others has shown that as of yet.

SO a question - you hoping or predicting?  Cuz I hope Simms kicks Garcia's ass in competition for the qb slot.  I just don't think he can objectively, if he were favored, if he had a spot in the coaches heart, or any other way unless Garcia gets hurt.  In fact, if a miracle occured and Plummer comes in I suspect we will lose Chris - jmvho.



\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#56 : May 23, 2007, 02:09:54 PM

I am predicting, I can hoot and holler all I want its not going to make a differance in who starts. Whoever starts I want us to win every game, I don't care if Gruden is our starting QB as long as we win. I prefer Simms, I like his arm and his attitude. I don't think Garcia is a bad guy and if he were 7 or 8 years younger I would be hyped about him. I just look at the weapons he had and compare it to what we have here, or had here last season and see Garcia playing like he did with the Lions. I may be wrong I don't proclaim everything i say to be gospel.
As far as Griese I was of the understanding that we had him for 5 years with a clause that we could get out after each year, and WE let him go instead of just resigning him, I oculd be wrong. Anyway, I can agree to disagree and I as long as we have a competitive and hopeully winning  season I am sure you will be just as happy as I will be regardless of who the QB is.

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#57 : May 23, 2007, 02:20:30 PM

Yep, I wish we had gotten it done with Garcia a couple year back, I don't root for the names on the back of the jersey, and I would be delighted to have a winning season - ya got a good read on me.  PS I don't care who the owners are, the GM, the HC or the staff (except Muir, Biasuccia and Mann - their units stink - and my patience is not unlimited.)

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#58 : May 27, 2007, 12:11:21 PM

Other than running Brad did everything better than Garcia, Through his career Brad has been a better QB than Garcia and never put up the stinker seasons that Garcia put up with the Lions and Browns. I really think people that think we are going to be a great offense now are dreaming, and are in for a very rude awakening. You must have not watched any Philly games and noticed the amount of time he had, and his go to guy happend to be a HB, I highly doubt Caddy can be a go to guy in the passing game.
37 is old, and we have no great talent on our offense that comes close to T.O. or Westbrook for that matter.

Yea, Brad Johnson was such a superstar, that he had to play in f***in World League (it's now NFLE to you young'ns) because he couldn't even earn a roster spot in the NFL. Brad Johnson was a mediocore, but game managing QB. Without Gruden's coaching, he would NEVER have won a Superbowl. Is Jeff Garcia the next Joe Montana? Of course not. But he is every bit as talented as Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon were when Gruden got a hold of em. The added bonus with Garcia is that he is a plug and play starter, he already has a deep understanding of the fundamental concepts behind the WCO. In 05 the Bucs went 11-5 and won their division. They brought back every single starter, but went 4-12 the following season. The variable: QB play. Not only did they lose their starting QB, but if Simms was already showing signs of regressing. This team is a solid, good football team. Now that the pass rush, LB position and QB positions are bolstered, there is no reason to expect any less than playoff contention. Jeff Garcia=Wins. Simple as that.

Hey clown, did you happen to notice that Garcia played in the "f***in" CFL and could not get on an NFL Roster until he was 29or years OLD!!!!, so don't bust on brad when your boy was not exactly a first round pick his damn self. Brad was one of the most acurate passers in the NFL before Gruden was even a HC, he has always been in the 60%'s other than his first season when he was 59%.
What a jackbutt, to use the argument that Brad didn't come right into the NFL, when the fact is neither is the guy who is the answer to your dreams. So you can go Buck yourself.

Look, man, I know you went to UM, so I'll speak slowly...follow the bouncing ball.  I never said Jeff Garcia was great.  I said he was every bit as good as Brad Johnson.  You seem to think that my disagreement with the "Brad Johnson was a superstar" argument means I think Jeff Garcia is a Joe Montana.  READ THE ENTIRE POST, SPARKY.  You like to go off half-**CENSORED**ed at people, when all you do is perpetuate your already apparant ignorance of the subject matter.  Once again, for all those that went to the "U": 

Neither Jeff Garcia nor Brad Johnson were great NFL quarterbacks.  But Jeff Garcia is every bit as good as Brad Johnson was when he arrived in Tampa.  Gruden can make Garcia every bit as good as Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon were at their peak.  Bet on it.

And for the record, more great QB's, including HOF'er Warren Moon, have come out of the CFL than the NFLEL.  Watch the sport sometime, you'd probably enjoy it.


___________________________________________________

Dear Glazers,

Please sell the team to Eddie DeBartolo.

Thank you,
--the fans

buckit

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#59 : May 27, 2007, 12:12:49 PM

NFL Classics recently re-aried the Monday Night Football game (2003) between The Colts and Bucs. The Bucs had Pittman at RB, Keyshawn and Keenan at WR. But the offense was rolling, hard. The X factor? Brad Johnson. It clearly showed just how effective Gruden can be with a veteren QB.
What did Garcia mean to Detroit and Cleveland?
  About as much as Steve Young to the Buccaneers?  LOL  QB is a key position but you still need other players.

Or Brett Favre to the Falcons...damn good point, man.


___________________________________________________

Dear Glazers,

Please sell the team to Eddie DeBartolo.

Thank you,
--the fans
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