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cheveliar

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#30 : October 31, 2006, 12:58:39 PM

I will agree on the rolling of Grads. I love the Way Denver runs the misdirection having the Snake out on the naked. However, they have a running game that proliferates that as well. However, I'd love to see Grads rolling with an option to run the ball...not option play like Vick, just to have the option to run it if theres nothing there...

Les Steckel did this often with Shaun King leading his offense.

People say the Bucs do not have the personnel to run the offense but at this point Gruden has all the pieces in my very honest opinion. Gruden showed that he has more in his playbook in the New Orleans game and a QB that can move. But why deviate from it and go vanilla?

This goes back to the problems some people had with Tony. Calling vanilla plays and expecting to beat the person opposite of you. As Chev put it the Giants beat the Bucs.

But it would have helped if the Bucs were not so vanilla looking against the Giants. We saw glimpses of variety in the second quarter bu once again the Bucs went back into a shell in the second half.



This vanilla might be explained because they had two weeks to prepare for the saints and only one week to prepare for the other games. More time to put in better plays with a rookie at QB.

But here is the thing though. Did Grads forget those plays from the New Orleans game all of sudden? The rest of the offense most likely has seen these plays in practice all of the off season and the exectuted them on gameday in N.O.. Heck since Grads took most of the reps as the #2 I would dare say what is there to implement?

Seriously? The game of football offers only one week of prepartion most of the time and with three games in a short time span coming up for the Bucs it is inexcusable not to have an offense ready to play.

Understandable that you have a rookie but in the end Grads PROVED he can run those plays in the New Orleans game.



I don't think he forgot, I'm sure they used a different game plan for each team based on film study...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#31 : October 31, 2006, 01:15:46 PM

Even though his completion percentage went down, Grads seemed more accurate this week.  His long balls were on the money this week and receiver who are usually sure handed dropped balls.  It was weird to me that he was more accurate in heavy winds. 
As far as Gruden goes, he called a good game.  You can pick out three plays that would have resulted in atleast scoring oppertunities, so he put players in good position.  From a guy who has coached before, every play is designed to score touch downs, even the simplest off tackle run or a 32 dive.  If all the players make their blocks, the play is designed to get a player down to the end zone, when they don't, some one didn't execute.  I think Jon gets next season to get it turned around, if not, the Glazers will be looking for a new coach.



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#32 : October 31, 2006, 01:20:35 PM

Ok, this is all I'll say on the matter, then I'll drop the topic altogether. 


Many here have questioned Gruden's playcalling VS NYG.  Here's the skinny:

Gruden's job on game day is to call plays that get his players in a position to score points.  I feel he accomplished his task, and then some.  Here's why:


1) Gruden's playcalling gets the Bucs into FG range and Matt Bryant kicks the FG.  17-3, Giants.

2) Gruden's playcalling has Michael Clayton one on one in the endzone for what should be an easy score.  Clayton drops the ball.  Score could have been 17-10.

3) On 4th and 1 Gruden dials up a TE Post VS an all out blitz.  Becht is wide open heading toward the endzone, but Gradkowski never looks his way.  Score could have been 17-17.

4) On two occasions, Gruden dials up the long ball to Galloway.  Both are on the money, vs single coverage, both are dropped.  Assuming the Bucs get 0 yards afterwards, and miss one of the two short FG's from that field position, the score should be 20-17.

Throw in the 4th down fumble by Clayton and there could have been another FG try at least.

Hope this clears things up for the ignorant.  The playcalling was there.  But there ain't a coach in the world that can win ball games when his players don't execute.

Im with you Buckit. On top of all that, running the ball into a brick wall can only last so long. Id rather take my chances with a rookie QB in cold weather and strong winds then run the ball and get 0 yards EVERY run. Again, take away that one big run (16 yards) and the Bucs averaged less than 1 yard per carry. Dont compare the bUcs to Minnesota who pounds the rock, there is a differencer between getting 2-3 yards per carry and sticking with it and watching your RB get hit in the backfield every run and sticking to it when your trying to win a game.

Besides all this, no matter how many runs or passes were called the BUcs werent going to win that game because the players couldnt execute.

mjs020294

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#33 : October 31, 2006, 01:22:22 PM

Gruden is the coach and the team is losing.  Like all managers in every industry he is accountable for the results of the organization.  You have to factor things in outside his control like the loss of draft picks, cap constraints and injuries etc, BUT ultimately he is accountable.

It is only natural for some people to be on his case right now, but it p1sses me off when we can’t have sensible discussion about this.  Everything is always black and white on this board, you are either anti-Gruden or pro-Gruden.  Too much arguing and not enough debating IMO.


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#34 : October 31, 2006, 01:31:40 PM

Gruden is the coach and the team is losing.  Like all managers in every industry he is accountable for the results of the organization.  You have to factor things in outside his control like the loss of draft picks, cap constraints and injuries etc, BUT ultimately he is accountable.

It is only natural for some people to be on his case right now, but it p1sses me off when we can’t have sensible discussion about this.  Everything is always black and white on this board, you are either anti-Gruden or pro-Gruden.  Too much arguing and not enough debating IMO.

BINGO!!

Apparently, if you don't want him fired, then (according to some), you aren't even a Bucs fan, but rather a Gruden fan.

I don't always like the way he calls games, and the Giants game falls into that catagory. However, I don't want him fired.

I think he will stick around, and turn us into a winning franchise again for many years to come. Does that mean I want to "suck his man teet" (YIKES!!)?? Absolutely not.

Dolorus Jason on a ban bet with me over the BCS Championship: \"You have your bet. I ain\'t scurred.\"- 12/8 \"Youre being banned from your own stupidity. Enjoy.\"-12/8 \"Prepare for your ban .\" -12/9 \"Miyagi gonna be banned.\"-12/9 \"Best bet I ever made ...\"-12/9 \"Miyagi mad , gettin banned.\"-12/9\"You mIght need a break from the board. Our bet should help you do just that.\"-12/10 11:38 AM
 \"The bet is off now.\"12/10 1:24 PM

bucDsystem

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#35 : October 31, 2006, 06:14:06 PM

Ok, this is all I'll say on the matter, then I'll drop the topic altogether. 


Many here have questioned Gruden's playcalling VS NYG.  Here's the skinny:

Gruden's job on game day is to call plays that get his players in a position to score points.  I feel he accomplished his task, and then some.  Here's why:


1) Gruden's playcalling gets the Bucs into FG range and Matt Bryant kicks the FG.  17-3, Giants.

2) Gruden's playcalling has Michael Clayton one on one in the endzone for what should be an easy score.  Clayton drops the ball.  Score could have been 17-10.

3) On 4th and 1 Gruden dials up a TE Post VS an all out blitz.  Becht is wide open heading toward the endzone, but Gradkowski never looks his way.  Score could have been 17-17.

4) On two occasions, Gruden dials up the long ball to Galloway.  Both are on the money, vs single coverage, both are dropped.  Assuming the Bucs get 0 yards afterwards, and miss one of the two short FG's from that field position, the score should be 20-17.

Throw in the 4th down fumble by Clayton and there could have been another FG try at least.

Hope this clears things up for the ignorant.  The playcalling was there.  But there ain't a coach in the world that can win ball games when his players don't execute.


i can accept all you've said except no.3  4th and 1 which is more important [when trailing] the endzone or the first down....

it's nice to want to score every time you have the ball... but 4th and 1 and a pass with the game in the balance with a "stud" running back.... a mobile QB.... or a full back who doesn't mind taking it to the air
come on... any draw play at least  keeps the drive going


to win...you must envision victory -devise a plan -and then have the guts to destroy anything that stands in your way

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#36 : October 31, 2006, 07:07:19 PM

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I seem to remember LOTS of posts on this board when Simms was injured and JG named Grads as the QB that said the season was a loss at that point and that most...not all, but most wanted to see how Grads and the other rookies would do.  The gyst was that it was more important this year to get Grads playing time and see how would do even if it meant LOSING.  But after he played well against NO and then won the next 2 games it seems the standards have changed. 

As far as balance goes.....BS.  The coach should call the plays he thinks will succeed.  Belichek was praised by the Monday Nite crew for going almost exclusively pass last night.  But Gruden gets crucified here for doing something like that when his team is trailing by 2 scores and the defense is stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders.  WE as fans don't get the same views the coaches in the box do and we don't see what the entire defense is doing.  With multiple coaches upstairs and the players providing feedback to the coaches as well, they get lots of info we don't.  We get that narrow view of the field that the TV camera gives us or if at the game, only the area we can watch during the play.  Maybe some of you have the ability to see everything and know what the defense is doing.  I've been to lots of games and have never been able to do that.  If you can, then I congratulate you.

Finally, on Galloway's radio show Monday night he said that they had run and pass plays called on every down and it was up to the QB to choose which to use based on what the defense was doing. 

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

SCBUCFAN

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#37 : October 31, 2006, 09:17:30 PM

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I seem to remember LOTS of posts on this board when Simms was injured and JG named Grads as the QB that said the season was a loss at that point and that most...not all, but most wanted to see how Grads and the other rookies would do. The gyst was that it was more important this year to get Grads playing time and see how would do even if it meant LOSING. But after he played well against NO and then won the next 2 games it seems the standards have changed.

As far as balance goes.....BS. The coach should call the plays he thinks will succeed. Belichek was praised by the Monday Nite crew for going almost exclusively pass last night. But Gruden gets crucified here for doing something like that when his team is trailing by 2 scores and the defense is stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders. WE as fans don't get the same views the coaches in the box do and we don't see what the entire defense is doing. With multiple coaches upstairs and the players providing feedback to the coaches as well, they get lots of info we don't. We get that narrow view of the field that the TV camera gives us or if at the game, only the area we can watch during the play. Maybe some of you have the ability to see everything and know what the defense is doing. I've been to lots of games and have never been able to do that. If you can, then I congratulate you.

Finally, on Galloway's radio show Monday night he said that they had run and pass plays called on every down and it was up to the QB to choose which to use based on what the defense was doing.

The problem is they have not run all year look at the stats.  This isn't about just the Giants game.  The notion of balance on offense is not BS.  Even by Grudens own words he realized his game plan against the eagles was too conservative and he needed to run more against the Giants.  So the Patriots can get away with passing all game long, I'm sure you don't think we are anywhere near what the Patriots are.  We have a rookie QB and passing 48 times is not realistic nor was it successful against the Giants.  Or maybe we can all blame the failing game plan on three drop passes, passes get dropped in every game, fumbles happen.  A game plan is not successful if it relies on everyone making every reception, zero turnovers, or all the bounces to go your way.  This is football sh^t happens every week for or against our team.  The idea that this team is good enough to pass over 65 percent of the time is crazy.  If half of you guys would of been told before the game the bucs were going to pass for almost 50 times and give caddy 8 carries you would have been up in arms.  But I guess no one can question Gruden unless they are all knowing and in a position to take his job.  Heck why even have a message board because obviously none of us have any right to question anything the all powerful team is doing.  I love the Bucs, think Gruden is a good coach.  I don't however believe he is perfect or beyond questioning his decisions.  Gruden is a creative guy I am pretty sure he can come up with a few creative ways to run the ball.  "roll outs, reverses, draws, etc"  not every run needs to go right up the gut in a standard formation.

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#38 : October 31, 2006, 10:17:40 PM

    I got no problem with Gruden's play calling. The Giants were stacking their defense to stop the run, daring us to pass. Unfortunately, the only Buc receiver who came prepared to play appeared to be Michael Pittman.
    As far as balance between pass and run, the Monday night game was won by the Patriots 31-7, who ran the ball about 15 times and passed it 40+ times. If it works for Belichek, no reason it couldn't work for us. The biggest difference was the Patriot receivers actually caught the ball...

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#39 : October 31, 2006, 10:21:31 PM

We can argue about game plans all day long, but I love how you all give no respect or credence to the other team for enforcing their will against ours.  That's not an excuse it's fact.  I have to agree with JG for playing the "wind" factor to some degree.  It was obvious to me that we only had a two qtr window to exploit what passing game we could muster.  Coupled with the fact that you only get about 5 or 6 opportunities to make a big play on offense I'd say he called it about right.  If you need a goat, just check out Galloway and Clayton.  Is is all their fault, no.  However, I'm sure those catches, instead of drops, could have been game changing plays and we'd not be calling for the coaches head yet after another loss.

Chev, this is the part I've always had a hard time with.  If you watched the Monday night game you noticed that Pats receivers dropped 3 or 4 perfectly thrown balls that would have produced big plays--just like the Bucs.  But, unlike the Bucs, these weren't the only opportunities!  Why have we fans become satisfied with Gruden's claim that an NFL offense only generates 3 or 4 great opportunities a game?  When I watch a competent offense I see zillions of chances for big plays.  The Bucs in contrast try go get by with a meager 3 or 4, and moan and groan when they strike out or only hit one, shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Well, bad luck...if only Grads had seen Galloway open . . . or Clayton hadn't dropped the ball . . . or that holding call hadn't negated that big (20-yard) completion . . .".  Well hells bells bad things happen and competent offenses deal with it, move on, and continue to make plays.  If Gruden's offense really can only generate a handful of decent chances every game then perhaps it's the offense and not the execution.  

Its going to look to some people like a different play every time we use it, but pretty soon theyll be able to recognize it....by watching the official for the first-down signal.   -Vincent T. Lombardi

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#40 : November 01, 2006, 12:39:53 AM

Not one single person who is actually paid to follow sports (unlike you 'experts') has supported Gruden's game plan or even been able to explain it. Now I know you guys are much more knowledgable, but you are the ONLY ones backing his game plan.
















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cheveliar

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#41 : November 01, 2006, 08:03:04 AM

We can argue about game plans all day long, but I love how you all give no respect or credence to the other team for enforcing their will against ours.  That's not an excuse it's fact.  I have to agree with JG for playing the "wind" factor to some degree.  It was obvious to me that we only had a two qtr window to exploit what passing game we could muster.  Coupled with the fact that you only get about 5 or 6 opportunities to make a big play on offense I'd say he called it about right.  If you need a goat, just check out Galloway and Clayton.  Is is all their fault, no.  However, I'm sure those catches, instead of drops, could have been game changing plays and we'd not be calling for the coaches head yet after another loss.

Chev, this is the part I've always had a hard time with.  If you watched the Monday night game you noticed that Pats receivers dropped 3 or 4 perfectly thrown balls that would have produced big plays--just like the Bucs.  But, unlike the Bucs, these weren't the only opportunities!  Why have we fans become satisfied with Gruden's claim that an NFL offense only generates 3 or 4 great opportunities a game?  When I watch a competent offense I see zillions of chances for big plays.  The Bucs in contrast try go get by with a meager 3 or 4, and moan and groan when they strike out or only hit one, shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Well, bad luck...if only Grads had seen Galloway open . . . or Clayton hadn't dropped the ball . . . or that holding call hadn't negated that big (20-yard) completion . . .".  Well hells bells bad things happen and competent offenses deal with it, move on, and continue to make plays.  If Gruden's offense really can only generate a handful of decent chances every game then perhaps it's the offense and not the execution. 

I have to disagree.  It's always about the execution.  We don't have the mindset yet that will allow us to perform at that level.  That is on the players.  False starts, motion, tripping and whatever else cause these drive killing penalties to come about is not a bad scheme it's bad execution...Tripping I have to almost excuse because if as a lineman you get beat you better trip somebody, we ain't got but one QB...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#42 : November 01, 2006, 08:09:25 AM

Not one single person who is actually paid to follow sports (unlike you 'experts') has supported Gruden's game plan or even been able to explain it. Now I know you guys are much more knowledgable, but you are the ONLY ones backing his game plan.

Are you really that naive?    The people you are talking about who are "paid to follow sports" are not really paid to follow sports.   They are paid to generate a bit of controversy to help get their radio shows to have more callers, etc.    It doesn't make them any more knowledgeable than one of the posters on this board.    I will say that the reporters for Pewter Report seem to tell it like it really is more often than any other media outlet reporting on the Bucs.    I haven't heard the PR guys say that Gruden should be fired or even insinuate it.

bradentonian

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#43 : November 01, 2006, 08:51:21 AM


I have to disagree.  It's always about the execution.  We don't have the mindset yet that will allow us to perform at that level.  That is on the players.  False starts, motion, tripping and whatever else cause these drive killing penalties to come about is not a bad scheme it's bad execution...Tripping I have to almost excuse because if as a lineman you get beat you better trip somebody, we ain't got but one QB...


Again, I think you have to distinguish between Jon the Offensive Coordinator and Jon the Head Coach.  As Offensive Coordinator, Jon needs to call the right plays to put the team in a position to be successful.  As Head Coach, Jon needs to have the team prepared and motivated to execute those plays.  Poor execution can be blamed on the players at first, but eventually you have to blame coaching because they are not putting the right product on the field.


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#44 : November 01, 2006, 08:59:43 AM


I have to disagree.  It's always about the execution.  We don't have the mindset yet that will allow us to perform at that level.  That is on the players.  False starts, motion, tripping and whatever else cause these drive killing penalties to come about is not a bad scheme it's bad execution...Tripping I have to almost excuse because if as a lineman you get beat you better trip somebody, we ain't got but one QB...




Again, I think you have to distinguish between Jon the Offensive Coordinator and Jon the Head Coach.  As Offensive Coordinator, Jon needs to call the right plays to put the team in a position to be successful.  As Head Coach, Jon needs to have the team prepared and motivated to execute those plays.  Poor execution can be blamed on the players at first, but eventually you have to blame coaching because they are not putting the right product on the field.

Well said bradentonian.  I could have not said it any better.  But I will give Gruden some leeway with the younger players on offense.  But the veterans on offense should be the ones leading the way.  That is why so many people are down on Galloway and his lackluster performance against the Giants.
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