Loyal Bashers Strike Back

[dalbuc]

Prefer did his rally the troops defense of the staff here:

http://www.nflfans.com/buccaneers1/article.php?story=20061030174115258

Option replied focusing on the game itself here:

http://www.nflfans.com/buccaneers1/article.php?story=20061031101436642

I mounted a more long-range reply to Prefer's thesis here:

http://www.nflfans.com/buccaneers1/article.php?story=20061031105037521

[flyinbuc]

you would have more credibility if you mixed praise and criticism. Critics blame fans for looking through rose colored glasses you Karen and guru etc never have anything positive to say.

[keeponbucn]

If you've been here any length of time you'll know that's just Dal, always. It's alway half empty, dude makes good points but is ALWAYS negative. It is what it is....

[alldaway]

I do not think the personnel decisions have been questionable overall nor do I believe the Bucs need serious rebuilding efforts.  To me at this point the offense is sputtering due to inexerpience (Ironically Bears fans complaints from last year are eerily similar to the complaints of Bucs fans.  They were about to give up on Berrian and Rex) and Gruden not mixing it up enough with his play calling.

The Bears offense improved simply by the Bears younger players having more experience and play calling that mixes it up.  I feel the young players on the Bucs offense will improve (and have shown improvement this year) and I do not think the Bucs need to overhaul it again.

The play calling through the mid way point has been a mixed bag.  Gruden at times is too conservative by using max protect when the Bucs offense this year has shown they can move the ball without max protect and the o-line can pass block.

We all saw how the Giants were on their heels when the Bucs started coming out and attacking through the air.  The mistake Gruden made was not using enough draw plays for Carnell like he did in the New Orleans game.

Basically what I am asking for is Gruden to call a game where it is resembles the WCO that Kubiak or Shanahan use (we saw glimpses of it in the New Orleans game for very good results).

This max protect in the first quarter and go spread offense empty backfield in the second quarter is playing to the extremes.  One is too conservative and is more of a reactive offense while the other is aggressive but does not offer much ball control.

What I want is balance on offense.

[cvillebucfan]

ADW, what young players on offense have stepped up? Yeah Joseph has been solid, Buenning has been MIA, Clayton is a mess, Gru won't start Smith over BECHT???

You want balance, I do too, its hard to have balance when you face 9 man fronts and can't throw the ball because the WR's can't catch or the QB can't make the throw.

[alldaway]

ADW, what young players on offense have stepped up? Yeah Joseph has been solid, Buenning has been MIA, Clayton is a mess, Gru won't start Smith over BECHT???

You want balance, I do too, its hard to have balance when you face 9 man fronts and can't throw the ball because the WR's can't catch or the QB can't make the throw.

*Trueblood quietly is playing solid contrary to what many say

*Clayton already has 20 catches this year.  People want to jump on him for that one drop and fumble last week and yet forget he made two clutch cathes the two weeks in a row. 

*Alex Smith is making plays this year but somehow Becht is being featured on offense.  Can not say Smith is "regressing".

*Joseph has quietly been solid.

*Gradkowksi made the throws downfield in this last game  against 9 man fronts. Not to mention Gradkowski has not thrown a lot of costly INT's like Brad Johnson that so many want back next year.

*Stovall showed he can make his presence felt in the red zone but has been inactive for some reason.  Zemaitis is inactive but then again the genious that is Bissacia had Winborn inactive as well.

*Carnell has shown at times to have a burst.  He has also a lot more catches this year compared to last year. 

It is a young offense and they will have their ups and downs so take the good in with the bad.  If you can not then I suggest you do not watch people.   

[cheveliar]

you would have more credibility if you mixed praise and criticism. Critics blame fans for looking through rose colored glasses you Karen and guru etc never have anything positive to say.

What part of saying I thought last year was the best coaching job he did, better than 2002, did you miss? You and keepon - who appears to have a reading comprehension disorder - always seem to skip over the "what he did right" stuff because if there's anything not pom-pom and short skirt there's nothing good in the comments.

Frankly though, in a 2-5 season there's not a lot of good news to be found. I mean who is the standout "feel good" story? It'd be one thing i we were bad but young guys like Caddy, White, Ruud or the young OL were playing. They aren't so you have a sort of we're getting beaten to no good end.

In this case, in particular, I was addressing why people feel so much distress over the outcome of the NYG game and to answer Prefer's argument that it is all misguided rage. The article is about the dark side explicitly. The thing is folks don't dislike negativity. If I'd rolled out a huge article ripping McF, Simms and Rice there's be cheers from the Grudenistas. It isn't about being negative, it is about who you are negative about that gets you in trouble around here.

There's some truth to that.  However, I still think it's easier to be negative than it is to find the positives.  Granted there are not many positive things to say, considering most are already looking towards next year.  I on the other hand am just waiting quietly for the turn.  I, personally, can't count them out until the math is clear and the fat lady is well into her song...but that's just me...anybody got anymore Kool-aide, preferably the Red flavor...

[Feel Real Good]

I've been a Gruden supporter from the beginning and still am. I think he gets a lot of undue heat from the irrational masses who say he won with Tony Dungy's team and is now ruining them, as if a team featuring Alstott, Sapp and Lynch would be in the playoff hunt. However, he is getting farther and farther away form the team he inherited and sooner or later he's going to run out of excuses for not winning with the team he has more and more influence on. My expectation is this season is shot. We can expect 5-11 or maybe 6-10. Next year, with a full complement of draft picks and free agent money, I expect 8-8 and the outlook things are really shaping up, in particular the offensive line is not still in shambles and the offense in general has a level of explosiveness shared by most of the rest of the NFL. If next season looks like this season, it should probably be Gruden's last in Tampa.

[ABuccs Fan]

ADW, what young players on offense have stepped up? Yeah Joseph has been solid, Buenning has been MIA, Clayton is a mess, Gru won't start Smith over BECHT???

You want balance, I do too, its hard to have balance when you face 9 man fronts and can't throw the ball because the WR's can't catch or the QB can't make the throw.

*Trueblood quietly is playing solid contrary to what many say

*Clayton already has 20 catches this year.  People want to jump on him for that one drop and fumble last week and yet forget he made two clutch cathes the two weeks in a row. 

*Alex Smith is making plays this year but somehow Becht is being featured on offense.  Can not say Smith is "regressing".

*Joseph has quietly been solid.

*Gradkowksi made the throws downfield in this last game  against 9 man fronts. Not to mention Gradkowski has not thrown a lot of costly INT's like Brad Johnson that so many want back next year.

*Stovall showed he can make his presence felt in the red zone but has been inactive for some reason.  Zemaitis is inactive but then again the genious that is Bissacia had Winborn inactive as well.

*Carnell has shown at times to have a burst.  He has also a lot more catches this year compared to last year. 

It is a young offense and they will have their ups and downs so take the good in with the bad.  If you can not then I suggest you do not watch people.   

20 catches? That's a 40 catch season seeing as how this is the halfway point. 40 catches for a first round #15 overall pick?

[cheveliar]

There's some truth to that. However, I still think it's easier to be negative than it is to find the positives.

I never like this line of reasoning. Why it easier to find the negative? Was it hard in 2002 to see that that defense was really friggin' good? Actually, what was hard was to filter out the noise and see that McF really didn't matter amidst all the good news. Good or bad is all the same because there is almost always good among all the bad or bad among all the good. This year it is REALLY hard to find the good since almost everything is down. Right now Wyms is good news. I think my whipping boy Bolden is pretty good news at this point but it is really hard right now to jones on anything in particular.

I guess the usual line is "you gripe but don't offer solutions" to which my comment is a lot of times there aren't solutions. A farmer can gripe there's no rain on the crops w/o having to be able to magically create rain. In football, it is even easier since there are rarely decision without alternatives but then you get the "hind sight" comment someone else broke out. Plus, there are times where there is no solution - QB right now. That doesn't mean you can't recognize the problem you have though.

Please, there was no short on griping and complaining during 2002.  I was here and most of it centered around my guys the oline.  And if I'm honest, they were a work in progress then and are still a work in progress.  So I guess if you have to moan and groan about something...Plus there was the never ending Dungy vs Gruden fight which rears it's ugly head seeminglu once a week here.  Plus some other choice tidbits.  Heck the defense was getting old then by most accounts. 

There's always a plethora of crap to bring up about this team and whether it's a troll or troll-like creatures it's spewed here on a daily basis.  Again personally I just don't go there anymore. 

Not to get into your business or anything but you were missed last week after the big win, funny how your contributions have risen since we lost... 

[flyinbuc]

Amen to that brother

[Garv]

Hindsight. The main ingrediant for genius status among "experts." Add negativity for for attention grabbing and you have a well stocked closet of Jim Rome wannabes GLEEFULLY expressing their "opinions" after every much awaited setback.
That's life here and I've come to understand and expect it. Don't LIKE it, but have to expect it.
FIRE GRUDEN! START LUKE! BRING IN to! If we win next Sunday? good game but.....

[cheveliar]

Please, there was no short on griping and complaining during 2002. I was here and most of it centered around my guys the oline. And if I'm honest, they were a work in progress then and are still a work in progress. So I guess if you have to moan and groan about something...Plus there was the never ending Dungy vs Gruden fight which rears it's ugly head seemingly once a week here. Plus some other choice tidbits. Heck the defense was getting old then by most accounts.

There's always a plethora of crap to bring up about this team and whether it's a troll or troll-like creatures it's spewed here on a daily basis. Again personally I just don't go there anymore.

Not to get into your business or anything but you were missed last week after the big win, funny how your contributions have risen since we lost...

Yeah well my trip to China sort of messed with my ability to post and see the games - I got back for PHL but fell asleep from the lag 10 minutes before the game started and woke up 4 hours later after it ended. I told Prefer I should stop watching the darn games and maybe we'd win more. I am going to change jerseys and see if that magically helps.

The thing is there is almost always going to be good and ill. It is rarely gonna be true that a team is all bad or all good. I think in 2002 that questions about the OL were legit heading into the playoffs where they were a huge question mark. In the 5-11 season Clayton was a huge plus with his 80 catches. Seeing the pluses and minuses is part of seeing the team as a whole. I don't get why that is so friggin' awful to do but everything here is black and white. You love or hate Gruden. I hated the Joseph pick, loved most of the rest of the picks and I "hated the draft" according to many. I though last year was a great coaching job and 2002 was brilliantly well done especially in the playoffs but I just want to rip Gruden all the time. Sure, right whatever. What I don't believe in is excuses and excuses take the form of "It was Dungy's team" as much as "He didn't have any draft picks". 11-5 doesn't have any qualifiers on it because the "schedule was soft". We won 11 games and you are what you are. What I can't get from the Grudenista is why you ever fire any coach since they all have excuses - I mean no coach draws up bad plays and most bad team have lousy players, bad cap scenes or poor drafts.

The Gruden Dungy thing is just rock dumb - anyone who wants Dungy back missed the boat years ago. The problem with the Grudenista is that everything devolves back to that. Any questioning of Gruden means you want Tony back which is a huge false dichotomy and frankly most of that is a product of the Grudenista imagination more than anyone saying bring Tony back. I use Dungy as a reference point primarily for his lack of offensive output and the criminal fact that Gruden can't outperform that.

I got an Orange and White 97 or some Valium whichever works best!!!

Look fellas, I respect most of the opinions here, I truly do. 

Dal and I don't always agree on alot of things, but Dal always does bring a new perspective on things which allow you to think more.  It is the good and bad mixed together that will usually bring levity if you read well.

It is the "Fire Gruden" or Gruden Sucks" or "We Want Simms Back" type crap that floors me.  It is the incessant thread of bashing in a juvenilistic manner that chaps my ass.  Without mentioning poster's names, some offer up the problem but are too stupid or dumbfounded to offer up suggestions for solutions.  It is "Gruden Sucks" and it's left at that.

There are a lot of good posters here that offer some great thought and opinion.  Sadly, there has been an infestation of stupidity and lack of knowledge of the sport that has filtered in as well.

I am just as frustrated as anyone about the W's and L's.  There are problems on this team.  A lot of them.  And anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that the initial step in problem-solving is to find the cause of the problem.  In the case of the Bucs, there as many causes as there are problems, none of which can be fixed overnight, in a week, or in a month.

Is Gruden part of the problem?  Hell yes, as he is the head coach, and he IS accountable for the 2-5.  What some are afraid to do, or just flat out refuse to do, is look beyond just Jon Gruden.

With our roster that existed Sunday, it is doubtful that Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, or alot of other great coaches, could have done a whole lot more. 

But that is just my opinion.

[dbucfan]

Dal, Chev and Prefer provide what this board is all about on one thread.  A thought providing pro and con evaluation of what posting and being a fan is all about - and now I will add my .02 and try not to bring down the level of the progression by adding in the issues that have folks so up in arms.

For me this team is a huge disappointment from on field performance to coaching, from play calling to penalties, (time for an adage) from soup to nuts.  The disappointment began in camp, followed by a roster selection, and is now growing the regular season results.  The reasons - there seem to be a endless supply of thoughts, coupled with injuries and underperforming effort. 

One observation - this team has talent and the talent is not coming out
A second observation - the whole season was based on Simms succeeding - and the reality of his performance and injury makes me wonder how so many could be so wrong.
A third - I like Grads, but I don't get the lovefest Coach has for him. 
A fourth - I hate that some of my favorite bucs of all time are likely going to have their last season end so dismally.
A fifth - I am really wondering how little I know about this game and the players bc I have never been so far off in my eval of a bucs team

And finally, this has to be the the best thread and posts I have seen on this board in months, I mean if you use plethora, false dichotomy, and levity - well the only class word left is penultimate.  Thanks guys - dal, Chev and Ed.  Great reads.