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mjs020294

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#30 : November 01, 2006, 01:17:56 PM

"Ambition is the last refuge of the failure." ~ Osacr Wilde


cheveliar

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#31 : November 01, 2006, 01:57:57 PM

The Bucs are progressing, in terms of the rebuild. It just doesn't always show up in the win column.

...and the evidence of progress is what?

All the quality young players we've plugged in? Such as.... I mean seriously, we don't have a QB (that we know of now), our RB has collapsed, we've got nada for future at WR we know of. TE we've got a player that can't displace Becht. The OL is a whole big bag of nothing until we see any evidence True and Davin are anything special and on defense we've got one guy Ruud that still has upside potential based on anything we've seen - and don't tell me about White on this front.

Our record at 11-5 was progress but clearly falling back to 5-11 or 6-10 as it looks now doesn't seem like progress. There's a lot of assumptions you are making about what could be versus anything we know/can prove is happening right now.

You can't see it today and probably won't.  You have to have some amount of trust in the FO to continue to see the glass half full.  If you don't trust them then your fears and observations will always be to the contrary.  It looks bad, as it stands today, no one can refute that.  It is the hope that these guys are gaining experience and will be able to translate that into wins even at the end of the season.  Would it be great if they went on a run right now? Sure.  Is it likely, not really based on the things we've seen so far.  But that's why I am a fan.  Because I have hope for my team, I have aspirations for my team, I have expectations of my team.  When they fall below that mark, I'm sure that the frustration or disappointment I feel is no where near what they are going through.  So I balance my thoughts with that and come to a happy medium.  Strictly speaking for me, I just can't play the rest of the season out feeling dookie about the team and their effort.  I can speak on it if I feel that it's not where it should be but my emotions won't allow me to see the glass half empty...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#32 : November 01, 2006, 02:05:11 PM

The main issue I have is that the FO, which means Gruden, let the defense decay while bringing in the "talent" on the offensive side of the ball.

Talent that the jury is very much still out on.  After 2004, we thought we had an 80-1000 guy in Clayton.  After 2005, we thought we had a 1500 yard guy in Caddy.  After ONE game, many thought we had our Montana in Gradkowski.  The offense is, in fact, getting worse even with 3 straight offseasons brining in only offensive players while ignoring the defense.  The fact is that the 76 Bucs, which may be the worst team in the history of pro sports, let alone the NFL, scored about 9 points per game.  This squad collected by Gruden is averaging just over 10 points per game on offense.  

In the all levels of football, you win big with defense.   You can coach up the offense to be efficient, limit turnovers, and execute in the "Green" zone.  You can win with a decent offense.  It is very tough to win without a top notch defense.  That is why even had most of the moves worked the last three years on offense, we still would have had a 9-7 type team at best.  

The fact that the offensive moves didn't work, almost accross the board, just makes it more and more crystal clear why we need a major FO overhaul.

cheveliar

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#33 : November 01, 2006, 02:10:31 PM

Maybe what you see and are looking at don't coincide with what the talent evaluators for the Bucs see.  I don't know.  That's the X-factor.  I asked this same question during training camp.  But none of us know what the evaluators use as a scale for grading talent.  Until we do, none of us can completely be confident about the statements we make.

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


cheveliar

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#34 : November 01, 2006, 02:28:59 PM

Maybe what you see and are looking at don't coincide with what the talent evaluators for the Bucs see. I don't know. That's the X-factor. I asked this same question during training camp. But none of us know what the evaluators use as a scale for grading talent. Until we do, none of us can completely be confident about the statements we make.

That's why, until something changes you use the best information you have available to you whoever limited that might be. Anything else is lowering yourself to the JG argument that since we aren't the FO we should all just shut up and wait for the good news to happen.

Not anything else...I guess I'm just one of those blind faith guys.  I know all the information I have is way limited at best.  So it would be faulty logic for me to rail against something I don't have all the information to make a fair evaluation with.  But that's just me.  All of our theories and thoughts sound good, OK not all of them, but I digress.  But none of them carry the full knowledge of what is happening on MLK Blvd on a daily basis...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


OpTiOnMaStA

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#35 : November 01, 2006, 03:11:37 PM

I think for me, the Giants game broke the camel's back. It was a culmination of everything that has gone wrong since we won the Super Bowl, and all of the pent up frustration for me and seemingly other fans just let loose. I have been supporting Gruden the entire time, too. This game, however, just exemplified so much the problems that this team has had since winning the Super Bowl that it was the last straw.

I almost feel as though I have made excuses for Gruden. I have given a pass to Gruden on many occasions. It was always "he didn't have the draft picks" or "he didn't have the FA dollars to spend" or "he hasn't had a constent QB" or "the team is too old" or "the team is too young." You guys get the picture here, though. These are all arguments that have been made and made well on this very board over the years. At this point though Gruden has been the coach for 5 years. Since winning the Super Bowl, the team has only gotten worse and the offense in particular has only gotten worse. To make matters worse, one of the biggest knocks on Gruden is that he gives up on the running game. Last season, we drafted a quality RB which we had been lacking and he ran him into the ground the 1st 4 games. That worked to perfection and we won the 1st 4 games. This season, the rushing attack has been nowhere to be found. Have we been playing from behind? Yes, but that doesn't mean that you go crazy and forget about the running game. It doesn't matter how ineffective the running game is; you need to run to keep the defense honest. We didn't do that in any of our losses this season and that directly led to our losses in my opinion.

I'm not calling for Gruden's head. I think he is a good coach that has been under more pressure than he deserves and also I think he has the ability to pull this team out of this hole. After this season, nomatter how it turns out, I think Gruden gets 1 more year. He will have enough FA dollars and draft picks at that point to play with that if he can't make it work, we will need to find someone else to make it work. Although I think he can turn this ship around, he has made some very questionable decisions in the last few seasons that he needs to try to avoid going forward. He still doesn't do whatever it takes to win, and that scares me. He needs to get more flexibile and he needs to do whatever it takes.

Garv

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#36 : November 01, 2006, 05:22:27 PM

The simple truth is that the Bucs are a team in transition. The transition of the cap from the red to the black, the rebuilding of the offense (which still needs work;center,te,fulback,speed receiver,backup rb), and soon the rebuilding of the defense (Brooks, Mcfarland, Spires, Hovan, Kelly, Babber, Quarles, Phillips, Bolden) all have to be replaced. The offense has some pieces that can be built on but the fact of the matter is that we a re 2,3,4 years from another top echelon position. This HAS to be taken into account when critiqueing the current situation. One has to look at the history and current status before commenting on what to do going forward. I truly believe that the Glazer sons are intimately involved in the long and short term strategies of the Bucs and FULLY support the direction of the team. They don't like the losses but like progress. The Bucs are progressing, in terms of the rebuild. It just doesn't always show up in the win column.

Agreed Rusty. But watch out! Our board "expert" will be hammering you for having blind faith in a FO he makes his board living bashing! LOL
We are rebuilding and have been as a few of us have been typing for some time now. There WILL be setbacks (losses). But the upside is a team built on long term strengths and not quick fix patchwork as in the past (post Super Bowl until 2005). Those with patience and foresight will be rewarded. Those with no patience and only negative hindsight proping up puesdo intelligence will not be rewarded but laughed at soon enough. I CAN'T WAIT!!!
PS WHY do you think these sorts are bound and determined to see Jon/Bruce fired and the Bucs having to start all over?
The ONLY power of negative thinking is failure and the glee of being right because of it. Sad.

We are all here because we are NOT all there.....
As always, GO BUCS!!!



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#37 : November 01, 2006, 06:05:58 PM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated.  I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

Garv

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#38 : November 01, 2006, 07:32:09 PM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated. I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

Of course. That's why it is ASININE to suggest firing Jon now or after this season. That's what I've been typing and getting ripped for typing for some time now. That AND the fact that I believe in the current direction of the team under Jon and Bruce.
I cannot WAIT to pass out the crow to the naysayers next year. BIG PORTIONS!

We are all here because we are NOT all there.....
As always, GO BUCS!!!

TURBO

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#39 : November 01, 2006, 07:50:07 PM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated. I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

Of course. That's why it is ASININE to suggest firing Jon now or after this season. That's what I've been typing and getting ripped for typing for some time now. That AND the fact that I believe in the current direction of the team under Jon and Bruce.
I cannot WAIT to pass out the crow to the naysayers next year. BIG PORTIONS!

better start keeping a list of naysayers my friend, they will ALL claim to have been "on board" after we start kicking ass again!


Garv

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#40 : November 01, 2006, 08:12:28 PM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated. I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

Of course. That's why it is ASININE to suggest firing Jon now or after this season. That's what I've been typing and getting ripped for typing for some time now. That AND the fact that I believe in the current direction of the team under Jon and Bruce.
I cannot WAIT to pass out the crow to the naysayers next year. BIG PORTIONS!

better start keeping a list of naysayers my friend, they will ALL claim to have been "on board" after we start kicking ass again!

LOL Of course they will! Well, winning games will just have to be enough for those who've kept the faith!

We are all here because we are NOT all there.....
As always, GO BUCS!!!

cheveliar

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#41 : November 02, 2006, 08:54:23 AM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated. I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

Of course. That's why it is ASININE to suggest firing Jon now or after this season. That's what I've been typing and getting ripped for typing for some time now. That AND the fact that I believe in the current direction of the team under Jon and Bruce.
I cannot WAIT to pass out the crow to the naysayers next year. BIG PORTIONS!

better start keeping a list of naysayers my friend, they will ALL claim to have been "on board" after we start kicking ass again!

LOL Of course they will! Well, winning games will just have to be enough for those who've kept the faith!

At the end of the day that's how you are ultimately judged...there's no way around that.  So for me, that's why no win is ugly. I don't care if we blow anybody out or if we Kick 62-yarders with 5 or less seconds on the clock every week.  Give me the W!!!

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


cheveliar

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#42 : November 02, 2006, 09:02:51 AM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated. I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

You see that 2-3 year change taking place in a place like MIN where they're playing pretty well. NO is really struggling to adapt. Jets adaptation is awful. The "if we change it'll 2-3 more years of pain" is just another form of FUD that has no basis in reality in the modern NFL. Change happens in this league, churn is normal and the old notion of husbanding resources up and building "your" team doesn't exist anymore. If you are trying to justify 2-3 more lousy years out of Gruden because if we bring in another coach we'll also get 2-3 years of bad results that doesn't wash.

So if we make the switch after this year and kick JG to the curb, I hear you saying it won't be as bad as we think it will be?  And you have stats and examples that give me better hope than I have today?  I'm listening....

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!




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#43 : November 02, 2006, 09:05:29 AM

It does wash to an extent.  Minnesota has a proven QB under center.  Dal, even you know that is a HUGE advantage.

alldaway

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#44 : November 02, 2006, 09:06:16 AM

The thing about firing those guys is the fact that the new folks will be starting over, per se, and it will be another 2,3, or more years to get THEIR philosophy incorporated.  I see no real sense in changing before the end of 2007.

You see that 2-3 year change taking place in a place like MIN where they're playing pretty well. NO is really struggling to adapt.  Jets adaptation is awful. The "if we change it'll 2-3 more years of pain" is just another form of FUD that has no basis in reality in the modern NFL. Change happens in this league, churn is normal and the old notion of husbanding resrouces up and building "your" team doesn't exist anymore. If you are trying to justofy 2-3 more lousy years out of Gruden becuase if we bring in another coach we'll also get 2-3 years of bad results that doesn't wash.

I agree change is part of the NFL.  Question though is do the Glazers take the stance that the Rooney's take or make a change like they did the first time around?

I mean the Rooney's staying patient with Cowher paid off with a Super Bowl win last year but the Glazers active approach to finding a coach to win a Super Bowl also paid off.    Knowing the Glazers they probably will make a change at some point if things do not improve.
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