Gruden says Garcia is way in front at quarterback

[olafberserker]

Keyshawn was twice the distraction in NY that Moss was in Minn. Chrebet (sp) was outplaying him and he hated it, his book after his rookie year was divisive - they were ready to be rid of him (Parcells his favorite coach) and McKay walked into it.

And no, I like Ryan Nece but he never came close to outplaying Ian Gold. Two entirely different leagues.

Silly facts.

[olafberserker]

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move.  It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line.  It's not rocket science.

[Feel Real Good]

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move. It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line. It's not rocket science.

Agree. I don't think it excuses the crappy drafts that have been made in the last three years when the team had all its picks, but it debunks the notion that things got bad as soon as Gruden got here/McKay left.

[umguy1999]

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move. It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line. It's not rocket science.

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move. It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line. It's not rocket science.

Agree. I don't think it excuses the crappy drafts that have been made in the last three years when the team had all its picks, but it debunks the notion that things got bad as soon as Gruden got here/McKay left.

Actually I hate to break it to you , but if wins & losses are considered measurables we did get bad when McKay left.....With McKay as GM McKay we won a SB, and went to an NFC championship game in 1999 and made the playoffs 6 times, . Under Gruden/Allen we have had the 4th and 5th pick in the draft....5-11 & 4-12 and a cup of coffee in the playoffs in which we got beat....

[Feel Real Good]

Unfortunatly you can't look into the future on draft day, I doubt we would have taken a RB, we still had Dunn for a few more seasons and in 2000 he ran for 1,100 yards @ 4.6 a pop, and caught for 422 yards @ 9.2 a pop.
We very well may have drafted Ian Gold, but didn't Nece out play him?

Aren't you killing Gruden for free agent deals that didn't work out yet excusing McKay for not being able to look into the future on draft day?

Actually I hate to break it to you , but if wins & losses are considered measurables we did get bad when McKay left.....With McKay as GM McKay we won a SB, and went to an NFC championship game in 1999 and made the playoffs 6 times, . Under Gruden/Allen we have had the 4th and 5th pick in the draft....5-11 & 4-12 and a cup of coffee in the playoffs in which we got beat....

If you want to simplify it like that I agree with you. But if you want to break it down like an educated fan, are you saying if McKay was still here we'd be winning with Keyshawn Johnson, Kenyatta Walker, Cosey Coleman, Dewayne White, Marquis Walker, Lance Nimmo, Austin King, Chris Simms, Travis Stephens, Sean Mahan as the future stars of the team? Because from 2000-2003, that's who the team brought in to take over.

[olafberserker]

Unfortunatly you can't look into the future on draft day, I doubt we would have taken a RB, we still had Dunn for a few more seasons and in 2000 he ran for 1,100 yards @ 4.6 a pop, and caught for 422 yards @ 9.2 a pop.
We very well may have drafted Ian Gold, but didn't Nece out play him?

Aren't you killing Gruden for free agent deals that didn't work out yet excusing McKay for not being able to look into the future on draft day?

Actually I hate to break it to you , but if wins & losses are considered measurables we did get bad when McKay left.....With McKay as GM McKay we won a SB, and went to an NFC championship game in 1999 and made the playoffs 6 times, . Under Gruden/Allen we have had the 4th and 5th pick in the draft....5-11 & 4-12 and a cup of coffee in the playoffs in which we got beat....

If you want to simplify it like that I agree with you. But if you want to break it down like an educated fan, are you saying if McKay was still here we'd be winning with Keyshawn Johnson, Kenyatta Walker, Cosey Coleman, Dewayne White, Marquis Walker, Lance Nimmo, Austin King, Chris Simms, Travis Stephens, Sean Mahan as the future stars of the team? Because from 2000-2003, that's who the team brought in to take over.

Damn... more facts.  Those really suck. 

[umguy1999]

Unfortunatly you can't look into the future on draft day, I doubt we would have taken a RB, we still had Dunn for a few more seasons and in 2000 he ran for 1,100 yards @ 4.6 a pop, and caught for 422 yards @ 9.2 a pop.
We very well may have drafted Ian Gold, but didn't Nece out play him?

Aren't you killing Gruden for free agent deals that didn't work out yet excusing McKay for not being able to look into the future on draft day?

Actually I hate to break it to you , but if wins & losses are considered measurables we did get bad when McKay left.....With McKay as GM McKay we won a SB, and went to an NFC championship game in 1999 and made the playoffs 6 times, . Under Gruden/Allen we have had the 4th and 5th pick in the draft....5-11 & 4-12 and a cup of coffee in the playoffs in which we got beat....

If you want to simplify it like that I agree with you. But if you want to break it down like an educated fan, are you saying if McKay was still here we'd be winning with Keyshawn Johnson, Kenyatta Walker, Cosey Coleman, Dewayne White, Marquis Walker, Lance Nimmo, Austin King, Chris Simms, Travis Stephens, Sean Mahan as the future stars of the team? Because from 2000-2003, that's who the team brought in to take over.

I am simply saying when McKay was here there were what "educated" fans call CHECKS and BALANCES. Maybe McKay doesn't allow the 2004 FA class of washed up busted knee HB's and turnstyle O-linemen. Gruden has final say on everything with the Bucs other than the owners who pretty much want a turn key team and have given Gruden all the rope he needed to hang himself which IMO he has done and anything less than a playoff visit will cost him his job, or if he is VERY lucky cost him control of the team by canning BA. I really think Gruden is best suited for a job as an OC under a HC that has a real GM, that way Gruden is 3rd on the chain of command and equal to the DC. 

[Skull and Bones]

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move. It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line. It's not rocket science.

I'm not even arguing whether trading for Meshawn was a good or bad move. It's the fact that any team gives up the number of 1st and 2nd round picks that we did and basically plays to win the Super Bowl "now" which is essentially what we did, is going to pay for it down the line. It's not rocket science.

Agree. I don't think it excuses the crappy drafts that have been made in the last three years when the team had all its picks, but it debunks the notion that things got bad as soon as Gruden got here/McKay left.

Actually I hate to break it to you , but if wins & losses are considered measurables we did get bad when McKay left.....With McKay as GM McKay we won a SB, and went to an NFC championship game in 1999 and made the playoffs 6 times, . Under Gruden/Allen we have had the 4th and 5th pick in the draft....5-11 & 4-12 and a cup of coffee in the playoffs in which we got beat....

The Falcons sure are lucky then to have him.  Why they must be making the playoffs every year.

[Skull and Bones]

I don't mind negativity directed toward the team but this whole McKay/Dungy crap has gotten old.

[Feel Real Good]

I am simply saying when McKay was here there were what "educated" fans call CHECKS and BALANCES. Maybe McKay doesn't allow the 2004 FA class of washed up busted knee HB's and turnstyle O-linemen. Gruden has final say on everything with the Bucs other than the owners who pretty much want a turn key team and have given Gruden all the rope he needed to hang himself which IMO he has done and anything less than a playoff visit will cost him his job, or if he is VERY lucky cost him control of the team by canning BA. I really think Gruden is best suited for a job as an OC under a HC that has a real GM, that way Gruden is 3rd on the chain of command and equal to the DC.

I don't disagree much on what a mess the team is right now. What I do disagree with is that the team was headed there before Gruden got here. From 2000-2003 the team acquired ZERO meaningful young talent. Look at the draft classes. Look at what players the teams that have been good the last few years were acquiring over that period. It's all related. I would have loved it if Gruden and Allen hit some home runs once they got draft picks back but you can't absolve the previous regime from what was done and expect Gruden to immediately clean up the mess once it's time to pay the piper. Obviously the 2004 free agency class sucked. But who did we miss out on signing because of that? I can't say those signings affected the long term future of the team as much as missing out on all-pro players available in the draft did.

[DanTurksGhost]

Ha, some really good reading in this old thread.

But Olaf... what happens if Garcia starts and struggles mightily (which I predict he will)? I think we will all be anxious to hear the excuses at that point.

Yes, very anxious. What have you got?

[Boid Fink]

I love all the Nostradamus's on this site.

Not really.