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Feel Real Good

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#45 : June 18, 2007, 11:36:26 AM

We all know the Bucs had no shot at Peyton Manning and LaDainian Tomlinson, but here's players the Bucs had the opportunity to draft: Walter Jones, Chad Johnson, Shawne Merriman, Drew Brees, Jason Taylor, Frank Gore, Adrian Wilson, Antonio Gates, Jamaal Brown, Steve Smith, Marvin Harrison, Will Smith, Steven Jackson, Shawn Andrews, Ray Lewis, Reggie Wayne, Steve Hutchinson, Bob Sanders, Kerry Rhodes, I give up. (Draft day only. I'm not counting who wasn't available because of the Keyshawn and/or Gruden trades.)

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#46 : June 18, 2007, 12:41:14 PM

I have always thought that argument was lame McCaddy - for one reason - a team picks a cb for their system and the guy excells producing great results evey year. And someone argues he would not have done that in another system. Fine, now take the guy from another system and watch him perform in the system Monte has- and he would stink it up.

Just go by the value of the player to the team he plays on, and what he does for the team. It is not a problem it is just wrong thinking.
I don't know how you can find my argument lame when we both come to the same conclusion- players should be valued by the impact he makes for his team, good or bad.
Maybe you don't like the fact that CB's who excel playing man on man are considered the elite of the position, but that is just fact...it's no coincidence that Deion Sanders is considered the best CB ever, eventhough he's probably never taken down a QB for a sack and had the tackling skills that would make Jermaine Phillips look 'lights out'.

"Some birds can only have a back archer if you flick the starter button - spocking the G spot doesn't work on all of them"

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#47 : June 18, 2007, 02:16:55 PM

Having Kevin Williams at 12 is curious. He is supposed to be a penetrator and that line got no pressure.

Ronde should have been on this list on account of the Philly game alone. Come on 2 touchdowns, 2 interceptions, a forced fumble, a goal line tackle to make the clock run out at the end of the first half.

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#48 : June 18, 2007, 02:20:52 PM

Having Kevin Williams at 12 is curious. He is supposed to be a penetrator and that line got no pressure.

Ronde should have been on this list on account of the Philly game alone. Come on 2 touchdowns, 2 interceptions, a forced fumble, a goal line tackle to make the clock run out at the end of the first half.

Man, that play was pretty sweet, too.


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#49 : June 18, 2007, 02:32:22 PM

I have always thought that argument was lame McCaddy - for one reason - a team picks a cb for their system and the guy excells producing great results evey year. And someone argues he would not have done that in another system. Fine, now take the guy from another system and watch him perform in the system Monte has- and he would stink it up.

Just go by the value of the player to the team he plays on, and what he does for the team. It is not a problem it is just wrong thinking.
I don't know how you can find my argument lame when we both come to the same conclusion- players should be valued by the impact he makes for his team, good or bad.
Maybe you don't like the fact that CB's who excel playing man on man are considered the elite of the position, but that is just fact...it's no coincidence that Deion Sanders is considered the best CB ever, eventhough he's probably never taken down a QB for a sack and had the tackling skills that would make Jermaine Phillips look 'lights out'.

It is an old argument - not attributing it to you - sorry it looks that way - I just never bought it - a man plays in the coach's system - and he either produces or doesn't.  Using Deion as an example - he would be damn near useless in the cover 2 - as his next good hard tackle would be his first. 

Guys produce, or they don't.  The comparison is based on individual arguments trying to push forward what one thinks should be the criteria - when the criteria is already there for them - produce or be gone. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#50 : June 18, 2007, 02:48:11 PM


Ronde, yes. As for Carnell, you are displaying homerism @ its finest!!!

QFT!


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

rowdie

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#51 : June 18, 2007, 02:49:25 PM

Using Deion as an example - he would be damn near useless in the cover 2 - as he next good hard tackle would be his first. 



Fail.

DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

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#52 : June 18, 2007, 03:33:25 PM

is that fact or opinion or fact i wish it was fact but it isn't and neither is his opinion.


That is awesome, do you mind if I use that?

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#53 : June 18, 2007, 07:05:26 PM

How is Derrick Brooks not on this list?
He is the unquestioned leader and cornerstone for the league’s best defense of the last decade.
One of the most respected player in the NFL. 10 straight ProBowls.


Sorry bro, but remember this is based on last year. There were many LBs that were better (and younger) than Brooks last year. No knock on him, because you're right, he is the cornerstone for the best defense of the last decade...excluding last year, when they sucked a fat one...which means he was the cornerstone of THAT defense as well.
Ray Lewis is ranked no. 32.
Derrick Brooks is not ranked.
Ray Lewis- tackles 103 / solo 80 / ast 23 / sacks 5 / 2 picks/ no tds
Derrick Brooks - tackles 121 / solo 96 / ast 25 / no sacks/ 3 picks/ 1 td



I see your point, but Brooks was apart of a bottom tier defense while Ray was apart of one of the best last year. While I may agree Ray Lewis is overrated in comparison to Brooks overall, I can see why Ray is where he is on the list and Brooks not making it (however I do agree he should have been mentioned as almost making it). This is not a list based solely on stats. That is something that you guys made me realize when I brought up the stats for Ronde and Asante. So if we want to be consistent with that argument, the stats are a factor, but the difference maker seems to be how the performance affects those around him. I guarantee had our defense been in the top ten again last year Brooks would be there somewhere. I'm not saying it's fair, and I'm not even trying to stand up for Prisco, I'm just saying I can understand from a non-Buccaneer fan standpoint why Lewis is there and Brooks isn't.

In fact, I probably would have him there in my list, but I'm just trying to be as objective as possible. The flip side to this argument is if that were indeed the case, D-Hall would not be on the list because he gets burned a lot more than Ronde.

I dunno, it seems to me like this will be a never-ending debate because no two top 50 lists will be the same.
You couldn't be more right.


Bucs Capacitor

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#54 : June 19, 2007, 12:16:32 AM


I'll say it for the 293638707th time this thread:

This top 50 is based on performance last year, not for their careers.

And Ronde was outstanding last year.    He basically single handedly won us that Eagles game with 2 int's for TD's.

Oh no I completely agree.  Remember I said that Ronde could definitely be on that list, and probably should.
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