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#210 : January 29, 2008, 02:40:30 PM

Here is the argument in a nutshell (forgive me dbuc for borrowing this) - Jon Gruden won a Supebowl with Brad Johnson. I KNOW Gruden could win a superbowl with Tom Brady, do you think Bill Belichick could have won a superbowl with Brad Johnson? Take as long as you'd like.

Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson AND A #1 DEFENSE.  And yes, I think Belichick could win with Brad Johnson (of 3-4 yrs ago, not now).

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#211 : January 29, 2008, 03:53:21 PM

Not gonna talk with you if you are gonna switch dimensions on me... Browns have only sniffed the SB from participation in a Championship game as I recall...

You know this is just an artful dodge - he's trying to say that Billick won the superbowl with Belichicks team...only after 5 years and a completely different fan base - I think that's about as tough as saying Peyton brought the Baltimore Colts their second Superbowl...it's admitting he's wrong without actually saying he's wrong...;)

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#212 : January 29, 2008, 04:18:50 PM

Not gonna talk with you if you are gonna switch dimensions on me... Browns have only sniffed the SB from participation in a Championship game as I recall...

You know this is just an artful dodge - he's trying to say that Billick won the superbowl with Belichicks team...only after 5 years and a completely different fan base - I think that's about as tough as saying Peyton brought the Baltimore Colts their second Superbowl...it's admitting he's wrong without actually saying he's wrong...;)
Where did I say Billick won the Super Bowl with Belichick's team. You're the one who said "I think we could all agree that Cleveland would not be the ball club they are today if they had not fired Belichick" as if Belichick had something to do with the current Cleveland team.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#213 : January 29, 2008, 04:39:53 PM

Here is the argument in a nutshell (forgive me dbuc for borrowing this) - Jon Gruden won a Supebowl with Brad Johnson. I KNOW Gruden could win a superbowl with Tom Brady, do you think Bill Belichick could have won a superbowl with Brad Johnson? Take as long as you'd like.

Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson AND A #1 DEFENSE. And yes, I think Belichick could win with Brad Johnson (of 3-4 yrs ago, not now).

That's cool Hate, but I don't. I think Belichick had Bernie Kosar, Vinny Testeverde, and Drew Bledsoe...at different periods in his career and he couldn't win until he got Tom Brady. Pete Caroll took New England to the playoffs with Bledsoe in '98, went 8-8 in '99 and was fired. In his first year with Bledsor Belichick went 5-11 - his only losing season with New England.

Bill Belichick has never had a winning season without Tom Brady in New England.

Gruden has won in Tampa with Johnson, Simms, Greise, and Garcia.

Both a very good coaches.

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#214 : January 29, 2008, 04:43:27 PM

If belichick were to be in tampa what makes you guys think that we would win a super bowl? Just because he did it 3 going on 4 doesnt mean he will get one here.

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#215 : January 29, 2008, 04:52:01 PM

Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson AND A #1 DEFENSE. And yes, I think Belichick could win with Brad Johnson (of 3-4 yrs ago, not now).

That's cool Hate, but I don't.
Tom Brady in 2001: 15 games, 2843 yards, 63.9%, 18 TD, 12 INT
Tom Brady in 2001 Super Bowl: 16-27, 145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

Brad Johnson in 2002: 13 games, 3049 yards, 62.3%, 22 TD, 6 INT
Brad Johnson in 2002 Super Bowl: 18-34, 215 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT

Johnson was better than Brady across the board.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#216 : January 29, 2008, 04:56:53 PM

2. Prior to getting Moss the Pats weren't a deep ball offense. I think Johnson could have thrown accurate underneath stuff to Troy Brown and David Patten well enough that with that defense they could have won 10-11 games.

Deion Branch was a pretty good deep guy...and so were David Patten and Troy Brown in their prime.

They have always spread out the defense and thrown deep, not to the extent that they have this year...but they ALWAYS have.
Brady's YPA was 6.9 in 2001, 6.3 in 2002, and 6.9 in 2003. By comparison Garcia's YPA was 7.46 in 2007, Griese's was 7.83 in 2004, Brad Johnson's was 6.69 in 2003, and 6.76 in 2002.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#217 : January 29, 2008, 05:04:04 PM

I'm not sure what your point is...other than Jon Gruden is a helluva coach with average talent.

The Pat's always threw the ball down the field.



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#218 : January 29, 2008, 05:15:55 PM

The numbers show that on average Brian Griese and Jeff Garcia threw down field more with the Bucs than Brady did for the first half of his career with the Pats, supporting my notion that New England won two Super Bowls with Brady essentially being a Brad Johnson-esque game manager amongst an extremely deep and well-coached roster and not a super star QB whose coat tails everyone rides on, and that New England's offense at the time was less efficient than Gruden's, who most consider to be amongst the most horizontal in the league.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#219 : January 29, 2008, 05:25:14 PM

That's interesting - what's that old saying "figures lie and liars..."

You can use stats to justify your point, but you don't expect me to beleive that you'll be making the case that Brad Johnson is better than Tom Brady at the water cooler tomorrow - do you?

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#220 : January 29, 2008, 05:30:45 PM

That's interesting - what's that old saying "figures lie and liars..."

You can use stats to justify your point, but you don't expect me to beleive that you'll be making the case that Brad Johnson is better than Tom Brady at the water cooler tomorrow - do you?

Be careful that one has sig written all over it
Stats show that Brad Johnson contributed more to the Bucs' 2002 Super Bowl than Brady did to the Patriots' 2001 Super Bowl (2003 is even arguable), proving the Pats, like the Bucs, won because of an extremely deep, talented, and well put together team and not because of some super star QB dragging a bunch of slobs across the finish line.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#221 : January 29, 2008, 05:53:21 PM

Actually - I agree with you FRG. No way was Brady anything more than a caretaker/game manager in his early exposure.

Proving that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts. But Brady did surprise many with his ability - Johnson surprised no one.

But since the Pats had a pretty good line when Tom showed and Gruden built one the year he showed up. I'd say Gruden did the better job of winning with the various offensive parts he had to work with.

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#222 : January 29, 2008, 06:22:49 PM

But since the Pats had a pretty good line when Tom showed and Gruden built one the year he showed up. I'd say Gruden did the better job of winning with the various offensive parts he had to work with.

I can't agree with that one. Gruden had one helluva defense placed in his lap.

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#223 : January 29, 2008, 06:28:16 PM

Actually - I agree with you FRG. No way was Brady anything more than a caretaker/game manager in his early exposure.

Proving that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts. But Brady did surprise many with his ability - Johnson surprised no one.
Well, it seemed earlier you were trying to diminish Belichick's impact on that roster by just saying Brady makes everyone better. That may be true but it's a darned good roster any way you slice it.

But since the Pats had a pretty good line when Tom showed and Gruden built one the year he showed up. I'd say Gruden did the better job of winning with the various offensive parts he had to work with.
The Pats did have a pretty good line when Brady showed up, but they're not there anymore. Bruce Armstrong? Gone. Damian Woody? Gone. Joe Andruzzi? Gone. Now they have a top 5 line built on a 1st rounder (#32 overall), a 2nd rounder, a 3rd rounder, a 5th rounder, and an undrafted player. Not much different than what the Bucs trotted out this season. Whatever line Gruden "built" when he showed up only lasted about 6 games. We'll see how this current bunch progresses.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#224 : January 29, 2008, 08:49:56 PM

Here is the argument in a nutshell (forgive me dbuc for borrowing this) - Jon Gruden won a Supebowl with Brad Johnson. I KNOW Gruden could win a superbowl with Tom Brady, do you think Bill Belichick could have won a superbowl with Brad Johnson? Take as long as you'd like.

Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson AND A #1 DEFENSE. And yes, I think Belichick could win with Brad Johnson (of 3-4 yrs ago, not now).

Hell, if Brad hadn't blown out his arm the team would have held together - it was the loss of an NFL average qb that cost this team for a couple of years.

And FRG, my compliments on pulling stats - but comparing Brady to Brad - they haven't been in the same league since Brady became the starter.  At no point would you not have happly stolen Brady for Brad.  Meant traded.

And you recall the buccs o when Gruden arrived, could not move the ball against top defenses.  In one year they could.  Not dominant - but passable - which led to the SB win.

And finally - it is a damn site easier to rebuild or replace an oline over years, rather than a year.  This franchise - one can make a pretty valid argument if you ignore not having decent qbs for the most part - has NEVER had a GOOD oline.  Even the one Olineman everyone loved - Paul Gruber - could not play enough to convince his peers or the fans of the NFL ONE TIME that he belonged in the Pro Bowl.


\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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