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BucsBullsBolts

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#30 : July 18, 2007, 08:57:54 PM

church, IMO, has nothing to do with god anymore. Church is a ritual. I've met way more honest, courteous, very good people that dont go to church than i have in it. Most religious ppl that dont go to church will agree with me that weekly church gatherings are over rated and really have NO meaning at all when it comes to god, jesus, heaven or hell.

But is this really that bad of a thing? Church has become, in a lot of cases, more of a social club than a hard core religious experience ... and I don't see much wrong with that. Most church goers that I know are good people ..... like me.  ;)

BucsBullsBolts

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#31 : July 18, 2007, 09:12:44 PM

When the Bible says to fear God, it doesn't mean to have a morbid, dreadful fear of Him. It means to have a fear of letting Him down, doing things He disapproves of.

According to my favorite Bible answer man, it doesn't matter if you do things he disapproves of or not, just accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and you are in ... no matter what happened or happens.



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Religion has taught falsely that you're going to 'burn forever in hell' if you're a bad person.

Exactly. Just accept Jesus and no matter how bad a person you are, you won't burn Hell. Conversely, don't accept Jesus and no matter how good a person you are, you will burn in Hell.... I'm sorry, this just does not compute with me.



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#32 : July 19, 2007, 12:57:37 AM

When the Bible says to fear God, it doesn't mean to have a morbid, dreadful fear of Him. It means to have a fear of letting Him down, doing things He disapproves of.

According to my favorite Bible answer man, it doesn't matter if you do things he disapproves of or not, just accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and you are in ... no matter what happened or happens.



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Religion has taught falsely that you're going to 'burn forever in hell' if you're a bad person.

Exactly. Just accept Jesus and no matter how bad a person you are, you won't burn Hell. Conversely, don't accept Jesus and no matter how good a person you are, you will burn in Hell.... I'm sorry, this just does not compute with me.

No BBB, that's not what the Bible says. Salvation is through Christ Jesus, just as the scriptures BTownBucFan posted state.

Just saying that there is no burning in hell forever according to the Bible. "The lake of fire is the second death"  Rev 20:14 & 21:8 "the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."  The second death means there is no resurrection.

At Matt 18:9 Jesus referred to this as Gehenna:
"And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire."

It's physically impossible for something or someone to "burn forever". When you burn something, what's left ? That's correct nothing, ashes. It's destroyed forever and that's what Jesus is symbolically stating.

God would never burn anyone forever.

"he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6

Herein lies the problem:

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But, unfamiliar to the Christian majority, the word "hell," in the entire Bible was actually translated from four unique words: Sheol, Gehenna (a valley in Jerusalem used for dumping refuse), Hades, and Tartarus. Below are a few charts detailing these words to demonstrate how they were translated.
http://mercifultruth.com/the-real-hell.htm   This site does a pretty good job of explaining this.

Until one can understand that in many cases the translators got it wrong, there is going to be confusion and ignorance about 'hell'.

Educate yourself.  Truth always withstands scrutiny.

Jesus said "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32 - free from false doctrines.

Face it folks, you've been lied to; God has been maligned, made to look bad as a result. Not a good spot to be in for those who are not fully familiar with what they teach.

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1

For anyone who doesn't believe that the Bible is really the word of God (or even a slight chance that it is), please don't respond to this post because we will have no basis for a discussion.

Thanx.


 


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#33 : July 19, 2007, 02:21:58 AM

Pearson began sharing this message, and it wasn't long before Christian magazines demonized him. The denomination that made him a bishop officially labeled him a heretic. His assistant pastors quit, and his congregation dropped from 6,000 to fewer than 300.[/i]

Wow. People must really think that Hell is loaded.  I mean, you lose 5700 people because you think God is forgiving?

Heaven must be like a country club.


The White Tiger

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#34 : July 19, 2007, 02:51:28 AM

How do you get to Heaven?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

He said it - I didn't

The crux of the matter is this:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [ Or through] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why do we Christians feel compelled to tell others of the salvation in Christ and warn people of the alternative?

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Ezekiel 3:19
But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

Why should you fear this second death?

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Many have described Jesus as a man of peace - and he was - but he also was the embodiment of God in flesh. God is Holy. He cannot abide sin. he provided a way for us. If we reject that way we have chosen sin over salvation from the wages of sin.

Jesus spoke of hell more than any other topic...it concerned Him that you might die without knowing, and accepting Him.

Burning forever? While I believe if God wants those that reject His Son to burn forever - they will. I am just not sure that is what he intends when the Bible mentions Hell.  Imagine the burning you would feel when for eternity you remembered every opportunity you had to know Christ - yet you had rejected Him each time. Knowing it was easy, yet you mocked. Imagine finding what you have been searching for your while life - but had rejected as silly - and realizing that you missed out...that would burn...

That's the fear and the fire I believe Christ spoke of. It is real and it will happen to some but it does not have to happen.

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#35 : July 19, 2007, 02:58:45 AM

How do you lose integrity when people who believe in the bible, earnestly, practice nothing but integrity?

I didn't mean that to be a negative jab at anybody who believes in Jesus.

My feelings have nothing to do with other people, Chev. It just wouldn't be me to accept Jesus on the
off chance that he may be coming back and all the born agains may be right and I would go to hell.

Self respect works too. Thanks BBB.

I just don't believe the hell/Jesus thing. It makes no sense to me.

You must go through Jesus to get to heaven. What does that mean?

Does it mean that Jesus is in the middle of the field and you must juke him
and get by him to make it into heaven?

Or do we have to run right over him, ala Alstott?

Ever see Mr. Bean in church?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bFw2LxKB4i4

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#36 : July 19, 2007, 03:07:14 AM

Revelations 20:11

Then I saw a great white throne and the One who was sitting on it. Earth and sky ran away from him and disappeared.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what they had done, which was written in the books.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades[a] gave up the dead who were in them. Each person was judged by what he had done.14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.  ---including sweet Grandmothers.

John 3:16 -18
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 

John 3:36 
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 14:6 
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

Acts 4:12 
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.




Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw:

An angel was showing a new arrival around heaven when they walked past a group of people singing hymns with paper bags over their heads so they couldn’t see anything.

The angel said, “Try not to disturb those people. They are born-again Christians and they think they are the only ones here.”





I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. --Umberto Eco



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#37 : July 19, 2007, 03:12:23 AM

In the book of Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus the begger.  Both men die and one goes to hell and the other goes to heaven.  So my question to Pastor Pearson is this: Am I to follow man and his thoughts, or am I to follow the truth of Jesus?  Hell is a very real place that people don't want to hear about.  Preachers won't speak about it for the same fear of losing their cogregations.  God is Holy and sinless.  Hell is place for the sinful and unholy.  God doesn't damn or send people to Hell; they do it to themselves.  Christ died so that we could have the liberty to choose our own path.  Choosing Hell doesn't seem logical to me, but it's each individuals God given choice.  This is biblical prophecy being fulfilled.  In the last days there will be agreat Apostacy, or falling away of the faith.  Never in recorded history since the life and death of Christ have we seen the falling away from the faith.  This was predicted by Christ as a sign of his return to the Apostles. 

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable or an illustration. 

Quote
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day.
http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.htm  This site explains this to a reasonable degree.

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#38 : July 19, 2007, 03:31:04 AM

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Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

If anyone causes a young Christian to sin - especially a preacher - this is what God feels.

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1 Corinthians 8:9
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

And for those that said preachers sinned - it is possible. We are made perfect in the eyes of God by Christ. Even though we strive to be Chrislike - Christians can still sin. We know what we must do and do quickly:

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James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.


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2 Corinthians 7:9
yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.

Joe - great question it reminded me of another:

Quote
John 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Link to Jesus answer to Nicodemus

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#39 : July 19, 2007, 03:53:45 AM


Burning forever? While I believe if God wants those that reject His Son to burn forever - they will. I am just not sure that is what he intends when the Bible mentions Hell.  Imagine the burning you would feel when for eternity you remembered every opportunity you had to know Christ - yet you had rejected Him each time. Knowing it was easy, yet you mocked. Imagine finding what you have been searching for your while life - but had rejected as silly - and realizing that you missed out...that would burn...

That's the fear and the fire I believe Christ spoke of. It is real and it will happen to some but it does not have to happen.

Buckeye,

Think about it this way, using God's sense of justice found at Exodus 21:23-25

 "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Now, I ask you, what wrong could you possibly do that would equate to 'burning in hell forever' ?

I ask you.

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#40 : July 19, 2007, 04:07:25 AM

Burning forever? While I believe if God wants those that reject His Son to burn forever - they will. I am just not sure that is what he intends when the Bible mentions Hell. Imagine the burning you would feel when for eternity you remembered every opportunity you had to know Christ - yet you had rejected Him each time. Knowing it was easy, yet you mocked. Imagine finding what you have been searching for your while life - but had rejected as silly - and realizing that you missed out...that would burn...

That's the fear and the fire I believe Christ spoke of. It is real and it will happen to some but it does not have to happen.

Buckeye,

Think about it this way, using God's sense of justice found at Exodus 21:23-25

 "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Now, I ask you, what wrong could you possibly do that would equate to 'burning in hell forever' ?

I ask you.

Not sure you read my whole post. I do not know HOW hell will torment - I only know it will be torment.

Yet, I know God made a bush burn, yet not be consumed in front of Moses.  ;)

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The White Tiger

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#41 : July 19, 2007, 04:09:51 AM

Burning forever? While I believe if God wants those that reject His Son to burn forever - they will. I am just not sure that is what he intends when the Bible mentions Hell. Imagine the burning you would feel when for eternity you remembered every opportunity you had to know Christ - yet you had rejected Him each time. Knowing it was easy, yet you mocked. Imagine finding what you have been searching for your while life - but had rejected as silly - and realizing that you missed out...that would burn...

That's the fear and the fire I believe Christ spoke of. It is real and it will happen to some but it does not have to happen.

Buckeye,

Think about it this way, using God's sense of justice found at Exodus 21:23-25

 "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Now, I ask you, what wrong could you possibly do that would equate to 'burning in hell forever' ?

I ask you.

Not sure you read my whole post. I do not know HOW hell will torment - I only know it will be torment.

I know God made a bush burn, yet not be consumed in front of Moses.

IF God wanted to punish sin this way, he could.

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#42 : July 19, 2007, 04:30:29 AM

Burning forever? While I believe if God wants those that reject His Son to burn forever - they will. I am just not sure that is what he intends when the Bible mentions Hell. Imagine the burning you would feel when for eternity you remembered every opportunity you had to know Christ - yet you had rejected Him each time. Knowing it was easy, yet you mocked. Imagine finding what you have been searching for your while life - but had rejected as silly - and realizing that you missed out...that would burn...

That's the fear and the fire I believe Christ spoke of. It is real and it will happen to some but it does not have to happen.

Buckeye,

Think about it this way, using God's sense of justice found at Exodus 21:23-25

 "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Now, I ask you, what wrong could you possibly do that would equate to 'burning in hell forever' ?

I ask you.

Not sure you read my whole post. I do not know HOW hell will torment - I only know it will be torment.

I know God made a bush burn, yet not be consumed in front of Moses.

IF God wanted to punish sin this way, he could.

I did. Here's the point:

When a person dies, they are acquitted from their sins, absolved.

Romans 6:7-"since a person who has died (A) is freed [a] from sin's claims. " HCSB

Footnotes:

   A. Romans 6:7 Lit acquitted, or justified
   a. Romans 6:7 Lit from sin

"for he that hath died is justified from sin." ASV

jus·ti·fy  (jst-f)
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v.tr.
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To declare free of blame; absolve.
3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.
4. Law
a. To demonstrate sufficient legal reason for (an action taken).
b. To prove to be qualified as a bondsman.

also-

Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;"

and-

Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." ASV

Those alive will be judged at Armageddon. The dead will be judged on what they do after they are resurrected.

"I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds." Rev 20:12,13 NLT

"Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. John 5:28-29  NLT

Torment.........now that's another subject.



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#43 : July 19, 2007, 04:57:21 AM

http://mercifultruth.com/lazarus.htm

Quote
LUKE 16:23
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What did Christ mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanos, translated "torments" above.

According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanizo, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."

The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

    In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figurative sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .

    The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. [Basanos] now comes to denote "torture" or "the rack," especially used with slaves . . . [Basanos] occurs in the sense of "torment" . . .

    The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment. If we put men instead of metal or a coin, the stone of testing becomes torture or the rack. The metal which has survived the testing stone is subjected to harsher treatment. Man is in the same position when severely tested by torture. In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torture remained (vol. I, pp. 561, 562, emphasis mine).

In this verse, basanos simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the house of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those Gentiles who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

If the Pharisees and scribes understood this prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated those who listened as Christ spoke. The implication that the house of Judah and the Gentile nations were to change places, with the Jews becoming alienated from God while the Gentiles were to become the "seed of Abraham," would have been almost impossible for them to believe.

Edit:

For those wondering who Yeshua is in the bold print above-

The Creator = Yahweh = Jehova

His Son = Yeshua = Jesus


The White Tiger

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#44 : July 19, 2007, 05:00:24 AM

My comment about God burning up sin/sinners was in jest. Some of your post was somewhat confusing. Help with something.

Are you saying that you believe that when people die without Christ - they will not go to hell? These will not go to a place that is cut off from God?

Surely not?


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