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alldaway

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#135 : August 14, 2007, 12:54:34 AM

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And the insanity continues. You state, once again, that "any draft picks prior to 2003" would have bolted by now, and you use ONE player leaving as the logic behind why they "all" would leave. You call that logic? I call that grasping at any and everything to try and come up with reasons to shoot down the obvious. Unfortunetly for you it's not working. You can't consistently use the word "hypothetical" regarding my comments, and then use the word "fact" regarding yours this much if you expect to be taken seriously. You have absolutely no idea if any, much less "all", of those 11 players would have left. Yet you have repeatedly stated they would. Do you not see the insanity in such a statement?

That is called the salary cap that is part of the NFL.  This is not MLB baseball.   Talent is leeched away all the time as that is design mechanic behind the salary cap.  Teams that are cap healthy have problems holding onto players (eg Patriots).  The Bucs who you admit were not cap healthy up until this year would be hard pressed to hold onto these players anyways at this point (2007).  If not all of the 11 left how many would remain in your opinion?  2-3?  Does keeping 2-3 players make that big a difference?  In my opinion no becuase you need to fill out a 53 man roster.

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Back to the 2006 season again, how many games did Buchanon and Haye start last year? I'd guess less than 5 combined. I would also guess (although it's not much of a guess since I already know the answer) that they became starters very late in the season when the games became unimportant playoff wise for one, and also because we didnt even pick up one of the players until late in the year. So going by your logic, two players can start for just a few games COMBINED, and that automatically means the entire defense was now young for the entire year. And none of that babble put forth comes close to explaining why 11 premium draft picks wouldn't have helped the situation. Sorry.

Games were unimportant so when they started they do not count?  You can not seriously believe that.    Yes becuase Phillips and Allen (both starting safties) were over the age of 30?  11 premium picks helped with what?  Where do you find roster spots for these mythical 11 players that you speak of?  I am curious.

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As for my argument being "blown up and run over", I think you need to reread the thread, many more people have agreed with me than you, MANY more

In my opinion if the people that agree with you believe that Brady was drafted in the 2nd round...excuse me if I am sooooo glad they do not agree with me.

I would not want people that believe Brady was drafted in the second round on my side of the arguement.  But what do I know?  I am an idiot when I think Brady was drafted in the sixth round I suppose?


escobar

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#136 : August 14, 2007, 01:23:57 AM

How do you know even 2-3 players wouldn't have helped us? What if the two or three players were a corner, safety, and defensive tackle. Last year we had no pressure, Boldin starting at corner and Phillips was getting toasted every play it seemed. Those three players would then have made a huge difference. That is what you are not understanding.

And because this guy messed up the round Brady was drafted in means that every person in this thread who agreed with me has the same knowledge as him? Once again, nice logic. You are lost.


Feel Real Good

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#137 : August 14, 2007, 08:52:29 AM

BTW, if you really want to see what poor drafting looks like, check out our drafts under Dungy. Anything you say about Gruden needs to be multiplied by 10 towards Dungy as far as drafting goes.

Alstott
Abraham
Dunn
Barber
Singleton
Kelly
Jackson
Dwight Smith
Wyms

Out of the 49 players drafted by the Dungy regime, the above mentioned players are the only good picks of the bunch. Notice only two offensive players of any worth at all were drafted under Dungy. TWO! Yet you guys have the nerve to bash Gruden for HIS drafting, amazing.


lol Escobar....my friend was berating me about Grudens poor drafting and I told him I agreed he's not the best drafter in the world but I showed him a list of every player drafted by Dungy and he shut up real quick....especially in the top 3 rounds he was god awful...and i loved Dungy as a coach...its just funny trying to compare Gruden and Dungy, you really cant do that. Sam Wyche drafted Lynch, Sapp, and Brooks, 3 hall of famers, and Kiffin coached the D...i think any head coach in the league could build a D around those 3 players to be the perennial #1 D in the league and that is no knock on Dungy....if we had a remotely decent offense from 1997-2001 we should have won a couple super bowls.

If the best thing you can say is "McKay/Dungy screwed up draft picks just as much as Allen/Gruden did", you have no argument.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

alldaway

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#138 : August 14, 2007, 10:32:18 AM

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How do you know even 2-3 players wouldn't have helped us?

A team playing sloppy football will still play sloppy football no matter how many talented players you add to it. 

The Bucs defense climbed to 17th overall defense with less talented players on the field than what they started with in 2006.  So the lack of talent is not the reason why the Bucs defense took a hit.  And if it was the old age no way do they climb back to 17th overall with the remaining older players staying on the field to finish the year.

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What if the two or three players were a corner, safety, and defensive tackle.

What difference does it make if these three players are making tackles and the rest of the defense is missing tackles?  You need everyone on the defense to be sharp and crisp in their gap discipline and tackling.  It is a team effort not like your mythical hypothetical players that would come out of nowhere to save the day.

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Last year we had no pressure, Boldin starting at corner and Phillips was getting toasted every play it seemed. Those three players would then have made a huge difference. That is what you are not understanding.

No what you are not understanding is the rest of the defense has to show up the party.  Even if the Bucs had Tommie Harris,  Rasheen Mathis, and Bob Sanders even these three players can not make up for the mistakes that the rest of the defense would make.  It is a team effort this is not Madden when you can plug in star players and expect a turnaround all of a sudden.

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And because this guy messed up the round Brady was drafted in means that every person in this thread who agreed with me has the same knowledge as him? Once again, nice logic. You are lost.

You should choose your words more wisely next time.  You set yourself up and now will have to deal with the fact you aligned yourself with someone who does not even know what round Tom Brady was drafted in.  Just to remind you as well since you do not know that Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round. 8)


bradentonian

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#139 : August 14, 2007, 10:55:14 AM

Let's look at the "premium picks" of the Oakland Raiders from 1998-2001 under Gruden:

Charles Woodson CB Michigan
Mo Collins G Florida
Leon Bender DT Washington State
Jon Ritchie FB Stanford
Matt Stinchcomb G Georgia
Tony Bryant DE Florida State
Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
Jerry Porter WR West Virginia
Derrick Gibson SS Florida State
Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
DeLawrence Grant OLB Oregon State

Of these, only Seabass and Porter are still with the team.  Do you really think a kicker and a WR with 1 catch for 19 yards last year would have taken us from 4-12 to the playoffs?

Even if you throw in 2002 under Callahan and Allen:

Phillip Buchanon
Napoleon Harris
Langston Walker
Doug Jolley

None of those guys are still on the team, either.

How could that team ever hope to produce with draft production like that?  You should probably call up the Raiders front office and let them know.  They will probably re-hire Art Shell once they realize that it's not his fault that his predecessors left him with a bunch of "missed" draft picks.




DanTurksGhost

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#140 : August 14, 2007, 10:57:38 AM

Bradentonian:

You realize that Al Davis runs the draft in Oakland, right?

bradentonian

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#141 : August 14, 2007, 11:01:27 AM

Bradentonian:

You realize that Al Davis runs the draft in Oakland, right?

I'm not blaming Gruden for the picks (I'm not a Gruden basher or hater), just pointing out that picks from that long ago aren't as likely to be significant contributors to the current team.


superbuc

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#142 : August 14, 2007, 11:10:11 AM

Ok, let's pick a new topic.  Not sure how we went from a pretty fair article on the Bucs to this!
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