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flyinbuc

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« #15 : August 12, 2007, 05:14:17 PM »

Why are we wasting time with  Simms ...??? Maybe because he is the only strong armed QB that we have and if he can work things out could be an improtant part of the team gong foward.



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« #16 : August 12, 2007, 05:15:59 PM »

McCown's arm is more than adequate.

escobar

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« #17 : August 12, 2007, 05:33:54 PM »

Great article


Gruden shouldnt be on the hot seat until he has a chance to fail with a series of full drafts (hes finally had them the past 3 years) and a chance to sign real FAs (hasnt happened yet). You can call me a Gruden homer if you want, but am I a homer for not running a guy out of town when he hasnt had a legit chance yet? I dont think so.



Im loving what I hear about Sears. I wish we had a real center. If Nece is the starting MLB I will be very dissapointed and very worried. A LB trio of Brooks, Nece and June would get slaughtered in teh run game. Gaines Adams will prove himself on the football field, in real games, when football players prove themself


very solid article

This is exactly right. My biggest pet peeve in life is quickly becoming instances where people intentionally ignore facts while putting forth their argument. It's ridiculous.

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Add in the fact that during each offseason Gruden has been here save for the current one, he hasn't had a dime to work with. So now go and look at any franchise you want, take away thirteen first and second rounders on their roster, take away any high priced free agent they have signed over the last five years, and then take away their starting quarterback due to injury for a few of those seasons. What does it all add up to? Losing seasons. I don't care if it's the Patriots, Colts, Chargers, Eagles or any other team. Every single one of those teams would have been in the exact same boat we were if their situation was like the one Gruden walked into. How anyone can ignore any of this is really beyond me.

Now that Gruden finally had cash and picks for once this offseason, we can start to find out what kind of coach we have. I say that no matter what happens this season Gruden should not get fired. He should get another off season with all of his picks and a lot of cash to spend to build on what we brought in this year. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't like Gruden and will be the same ones **CENSORED**ing about our next coach too.

superbuc

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« #18 : August 12, 2007, 05:51:37 PM »

I had no idea it was that many high picks. 

I'm not a Gaines apologist, I'm a realist.  He's in his first training camp and preseason game.  He's smart, quick, fast, and coachable.  Give him some time.

Uncle Stan

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« #19 : August 12, 2007, 06:10:59 PM »

Escobar,

How right you are.

Many here **CENSORED**ed like crazy about Dungy not getting us to the super bowl with the talent we had.

Then came Gruden, the Messaiah.
But he was only given lousy draft picks and no $.
So now they complain about him.

Don't care who the next coach or what year he arrives, he will hear the same posters **CENSORED**ing if we don't win the division every year and win the SB every other year.

Its the mentality of too many fans, unfortunately. They read the fishwraps or listen to the local haters with an agenda on the radio and assume thats gospel.

Ignorance is bless, I guess.

Webster-ignorant-detitute of knowledge or education. Yup, ignorance fits.


Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

Rusty

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« #20 : August 12, 2007, 06:18:32 PM »

Great article


Gruden shouldnt be on the hot seat until he has a chance to fail with a series of full drafts (hes finally had them the past 3 years) and a chance to sign real FAs (hasnt happened yet). You can call me a Gruden homer if you want, but am I a homer for not running a guy out of town when he hasnt had a legit chance yet? I dont think so.



Im loving what I hear about Sears. I wish we had a real center. If Nece is the starting MLB I will be very dissapointed and very worried. A LB trio of Brooks, Nece and June would get slaughtered in teh run game. Gaines Adams will prove himself on the football field, in real games, when football players prove themself


very solid article

This is exactly right. My biggest pet peeve in life is quickly becoming instances where people intentionally ignore facts while putting forth their argument. It's ridiculous.

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Add in the fact that during each offseason Gruden has been here save for the current one, he hasn't had a dime to work with. So now go and look at any franchise you want, take away thirteen first and second rounders on their roster, take away any high priced free agent they have signed over the last five years, and then take away their starting quarterback due to injury for a few of those seasons. What does it all add up to? Losing seasons. I don't care if it's the Patriots, Colts, Chargers, Eagles or any other team. Every single one of those teams would have been in the exact same boat we were if their situation was like the one Gruden walked into. How anyone can ignore any of this is really beyond me.

Now that Gruden finally had cash and picks for once this offseason, we can start to find out what kind of coach we have. I say that no matter what happens this season Gruden should not get fired. He should get another off season with all of his picks and a lot of cash to spend to build on what we brought in this year. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't like Gruden and will be the same ones **CENSORED**ing about our next coach too.

100% agree. Solid post.

                \'Every day above ground is a good day\'

mjpwooo

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« #21 : August 12, 2007, 06:22:56 PM »

Can't wait for dal to chime in on the latter part of this thread...  (I agree with Escobar).

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« #22 : August 12, 2007, 06:30:01 PM »

Wish he wouldn't. I've had a pretty good day today.........


Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

bradentonian

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« #23 : August 12, 2007, 06:30:34 PM »

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Enough with the excuses.  Are you really pinning our struggles on draft picks from up to 10 years ago?  That's quite a stretch...  The fact that Dungy and McKay drafted a bust WR in 1997 shouldn't have any impact on how we play now, especially considering a) most draftees are gone within 5 years and b) our drafting record under both the new and old regimes make it hard for me to believe that these guys would be the best guys on the team even if we still had them.

Enough with the excuses, it's time to produce.


escobar

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« #24 : August 12, 2007, 06:58:36 PM »

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Enough with the excuses.  Are you really pinning our struggles on draft picks from up to 10 years ago?  That's quite a stretch...  The fact that Dungy and McKay drafted a bust WR in 1997 shouldn't have any impact on how we play now, especially considering a) most draftees are gone within 5 years and b) our drafting record under both the new and old regimes make it hard for me to believe that these guys would be the best guys on the team even if we still had them.

Enough with the excuses, it's time to produce.

Most draftees are gone within five years? Interesting, care to prove that? I think you are trying to merge how long a premium draft pick stays with his original team with the average career length of the average NFL player.

I would wager that many premium draft picks that do leave their first team within the first five years were largely considered busts. If not busts then they were probably traded with the original team receiving equaly talented elite players in return or at the very least a new set of premium draft picks to work with.

And it's amusing to me how you picked the oldest draft pick save for Keyshawn out of my list to base your whole argument off of. My point in bringing up the names that I did was to emphasize that the former regime played a much larger role in leading us to our current state than our current regime has.  Jacquez and Reidel may have been older mistakes but they are mistakes none the less. The rest of the list represents elite players that we do not have on our roster that we need to field a winning team.

I also find it funny that I just listed thirteen premium draft picks that the former regime blew, yet they are still to this day regarded as superior to our current regime. How many premium draft picks has Gruden blown? You can make a case for Clayton, but in reality it seems as though he got a fat head and lost his work ethic. A guy who is runner up to ROY is clearly worthy of a first round pick, and is clearly more talented than Reidel and Jacquez combined. Besides Clayton, Gruden has drafted a ROY in Caddy, a right guard in DJ who many are saying looks to be a sure pro bowl player in the near future, a left guard who has also been receiving rave reviews by outsiders including comments such as he looks like a five year vet and future pro bowler as well, a right tackle in Trueblood who may or may not be better than Kenyatta but I'm fairly certain most on here already believe he is, and I'm sure I'm missing some. But the point is Gruden has used his premium picks much better than our former regime yet is constantly bashed on this forum as a man who cannot build a team. Take a step back and realize where the blame REALLY lies for our team being where it is.

bradentonian

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« #25 : August 12, 2007, 07:10:20 PM »

Most draftees are gone within five years? Interesting, care to prove that? I think you are trying to merge how long a premium draft pick stays with his original team with the average career length of the average NFL player.

I would wager that many premium draft picks that do leave their first team within the first five years were largely considered busts. If not busts then they were probably traded with the original team receiving equaly talented elite players in return or at the very least a new set of premium draft picks to work with.

And it's amusing to me how you picked the oldest draft pick save for Keyshawn out of my list to base your whole argument off of. My point in bringing up the names that I did was to emphasize that the former regime played a much larger role in leading us to our current state than our current regime has. Jacquez and Reidel may have been older mistakes but they are mistakes none the less. The rest of the list represents elite players that we do not have on our roster that we need to field a winning team.

I also find it funny that I just listed thirteen premium draft picks that the former regime blew, yet they are still to this day regarded as superior to our current regime. How many premium draft picks has Gruden blown? You can make a case for Clayton, but in reality it seems as though he got a fat head and lost his work ethic. A guy who is runner up to ROY is clearly worthy of a first round pick, and is clearly more talented than Reidel and Jacquez combined. Besides Clayton, Gruden has drafted a ROY in Caddy, a right guard in DJ who many are saying looks to be a sure pro bowl player in the near future, a left guard who has also been receiving rave reviews by outsiders including comments such as he looks like a five year vet and future pro bowler as well, a right tackle in Trueblood who may or may not be better than Kenyatta but I'm fairly certain most on here already believe he is, and I'm sure I'm missing some. But the point is Gruden has used his premium picks much better than our former regime yet is constantly bashed on this forum as a man who cannot build a team. Take a step back and realize where the blame REALLY lies for our team being where it is.


From 1997-2003 we had 18 day one picks, of which only 2 (BK and Barber) will be on the team this year (I'm assuming Simms gets cut).  Would the difference be so great if we had one or two more?  Premium rooks usually sign 5-year deals.  Sure, there are some that get resigned but many bust out, are traded, or sign with new teams in FA.  How many of those 13 picks do you think would still be with the team?  I'm not saying that there isn't a basis for the "loss of picks" argument, but I think going back to 1997 is overdoing it. 


Bucs N Beers

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« #26 : August 12, 2007, 07:23:25 PM »

doesn't everyone tip Simms' passes?

I tipped three last week. And I'm 5'8" and live in Virginia.


Green Right Slot, Albacore 3 Y Quesadilla



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« #27 : August 12, 2007, 07:35:36 PM »

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Enough with the excuses.  Are you really pinning our struggles on draft picks from up to 10 years ago?  That's quite a stretch...  The fact that Dungy and McKay drafted a bust WR in 1997 shouldn't have any impact on how we play now, especially considering a) most draftees are gone within 5 years and b) our drafting record under both the new and old regimes make it hard for me to believe that these guys would be the best guys on the team even if we still had them.

Enough with the excuses, it's time to produce.


I'm with you bro.... the fact that someone would go back as far as Reidel and Quez shows the depths that some will reach to make excuses for the lack of improvement by the current regime.

Two words...... SIMPLY AMAZING!!!!

Lamond

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« #28 : August 12, 2007, 07:39:54 PM »

personally I don't give credence to articles without names on them


Simms2Clayton05

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« #29 : August 12, 2007, 07:55:39 PM »

Great article


Gruden shouldnt be on the hot seat until he has a chance to fail with a series of full drafts (hes finally had them the past 3 years) and a chance to sign real FAs (hasnt happened yet). You can call me a Gruden homer if you want, but am I a homer for not running a guy out of town when he hasnt had a legit chance yet? I dont think so.



Im loving what I hear about Sears. I wish we had a real center. If Nece is the starting MLB I will be very dissapointed and very worried. A LB trio of Brooks, Nece and June would get slaughtered in teh run game. Gaines Adams will prove himself on the football field, in real games, when football players prove themself


very solid article

This is exactly right. My biggest pet peeve in life is quickly becoming instances where people intentionally ignore facts while putting forth their argument. It's ridiculous.

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Add in the fact that during each offseason Gruden has been here save for the current one, he hasn't had a dime to work with. So now go and look at any franchise you want, take away thirteen first and second rounders on their roster, take away any high priced free agent they have signed over the last five years, and then take away their starting quarterback due to injury for a few of those seasons. What does it all add up to? Losing seasons. I don't care if it's the Patriots, Colts, Chargers, Eagles or any other team. Every single one of those teams would have been in the exact same boat we were if their situation was like the one Gruden walked into. How anyone can ignore any of this is really beyond me.

Now that Gruden finally had cash and picks for once this offseason, we can start to find out what kind of coach we have. I say that no matter what happens this season Gruden should not get fired. He should get another off season with all of his picks and a lot of cash to spend to build on what we brought in this year. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't like Gruden and will be the same ones **CENSORED**ing about our next coach too.

finally somebody else who thinks gruden has not had the chance to really do what he wants to do till this year. I have seen alot of people say that were not going to win alot games this year. but if gruden turns this team into a 8-8 9-7 team would be an improvement from what you thaught it was going to be. Would the haters stop then? Listen Im not a gruden lover hater or dungy lover hater but i think he should at least have this year and next year to really see where can take us.
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