Sporting News Article - interesting nuggets of info...

[MiltonMack21]

There is no need to argue at this point. He is here for this year, he is as he should be on the hotseat. His drafting to this point has been questionable. His offense has sputtered, his offensive coaches have not been held accountable for the lack of production. But this is a new year and I would like to just forget about last year. If he doesn't get us to the playoffs with his players and this schedule then he has no one to blame but himself.

If he doesn't get us to the playoffs with his players and this schedule then he has no one to blame but himself.

Naw..... someone will blame the trading away of Steve Young for the team's continued woes.

[escobar]

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

That is THIRTEEN players this franchise has missed on or never had. Thirteen elite level players that should be in their prime right now being the leaders of our team. Thirteen players Gruden had absolutely nothing to do with. Take away thirteen of any teams current best players and lets see how good THEY are.

Enough with the excuses. Are you really pinning our struggles on draft picks from up to 10 years ago? That's quite a stretch... The fact that Dungy and McKay drafted a bust WR in 1997 shouldn't have any impact on how we play now, especially considering a) most draftees are gone within 5 years and b) our drafting record under both the new and old regimes make it hard for me to believe that these guys would be the best guys on the team even if we still had them.

Enough with the excuses, it's time to produce.

I'm with you bro.... the fact that someone would go back as far as Reidel and Quez shows the depths that some will reach to make excuses for the lack of improvement by the current regime.

Two words...... SIMPLY AMAZING!!!!

What's simply amazing is the fact that you spew out phrases such as "lack of improvement" while failing to offer up the means by which to do so. Judging from a few of these responses one would think that a 9 and a 10 year vet has never provided a shred of help to any team in league history. Get a clue. And if you anti's can't get over Jacquez and Reidel being brought up, fine, leave them out of the argument. That still leaves 11 premium draft picks wasted, in other words an entire starting defensive or offensive unit. First and second round picks are first and second round picks for a reason, they are (supposed to be) more talented than lower round picks. Not having them on your roster obviously means less talent to work with. You can ignore the facts all you want, but Gruden has not been provided with the necessary tools to build a consistent NFL winner up until now. That fact will always remain whether you want it to or not. The fact that you ignore these REASONS shows me that your opinions regarding this team are formed more by hate and resentment than logic.

[MiltonMack21]

If he doesn't get us to the playoffs with his players and this schedule then he has no one to blame but himself.

Naw..... someone will blame the trading away of Steve Young for the team's continued woes.

Ehh you're probably right.. or they will blame the Bucs for beating the Lions all those years ago and losing out on Barry Sanders to this current regime's issues.

[Bucs Capacitor]

What's simply amazing is the fact that you spew out phrases such as "lack of improvement" while failing to offer up the means by which to do so. Judging from a few of these responses one would think that a 9 and a 10 year vet has never provided a shred of help to any team in league history. Get a clue. And if you anti's can't get over Jacquez and Reidel being brought up, fine, leave them out of the argument. That still leaves 11 premium draft picks wasted, in other words an entire starting defensive or offensive unit. First and second round picks are first and second round picks for a reason, they are (supposed to be) more talented than lower round picks. Not having them on your roster obviously means less talent to work with. You can ignore the facts all you want, but Gruden has not been provided with the necessary tools to build a consistent NFL winner up until now. That fact will always remain whether you want it to or not. The fact that you ignore these REASONS shows me that your opinions regarding this team are formed more by hate and resentment than logic.

Give it up, Escobar.  You're the only one in this thread making valid points and when people can't argue they pick one thing that may be wrong and roll with it, ignoring the rest.  I admire the fight you're making to make this a real good debate, but it seems no one can step up with anything other than "Quez and Reidel??  ROFLMFAO!!!112"

The fact of the matter is, even if/when we make the playoffs there will still be many here that will call for Gruden's head.  They'll pick one thing they saw went wrong, and will roll with that the entire off-season, pointing why they think they know better than a guy with years and years of experience of NFL coaching (not to mention a Super Bowl) under his belt. 

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

Escobar, i will concede that the picks given up for Gruden impacted this franchise, but thats it. Trading picks to acquire Key or (God forbid) Walker helped this franchise win a SB.... you can't have it both ways, brah.

My question is how long will these picks be used as a crutch? 1, 2, 5 more yrs? We won a SB in 02 minus those picks..... won a division in 05 as well.

Suppose, just for the sake of supposing, we go 5-11 this year, what exactly be the excuse then?

And for the record, i'm not anti-Gruden. I just wanna win. Unlike some,  my allegiance is to the Bucs, not the coach.

[escobar]

I've said repeatedly that Gruden deserves at LEAST two offseasons with cap room to spend and our full alotment of draft picks to show what he and Allen can build. That's why I think that no matter what happens this season I don't think he should be fired, because in my eyes this is really year one in the Gruden experiment. Let him sign who he wants next offseason when we have a ton of cap room, draft another full class, and go through next season. If we don't improve next year (end up on the right side of .500) then Gruden/Allen will have shown me that even with money to spend and premium draft picks to use maybe they aren't cut out for building a franchise from the ground floor. I'd prefer three full offseasons with picks and cash but due to the competitive nature of pro sports I don't think they will be given that.

The history I brought up was to show why things BEFORE this point haven't gone as many Buc fans would have hoped they would. It wasn't intended to provide reasons for future failure, only past. Gruden now has the resources he needs, let him use them before you judge him on his capabilities.

[superbuc]

Gruden: 2 first rounders, 2 second rounders
Keyshawn: 2 first rounders
Kenyatta: 1st and 2nd rounder
McFarland: 1st rounder
Jacquez: 2nd rounder
Reidel: 1st rounder

Escobar, i will concede that the picks given up for Gruden impacted this franchise, but thats it. Trading picks to acquire Key or (God forbid) Walker helped this franchise win a SB.... you can't have it both ways, brah.

My question is how long will these picks be used as a crutch? 1, 2, 5 more yrs? We won a SB in 02 minus those picks..... won a division in 05 as well.

Suppose, just for the sake of supposing, we go 5-11 this year, what exactly be the excuse then?

And for the record, i'm not anti-Gruden. I just wanna win. Unlike some, my allegiance is to the Bucs, not the coach.

very well said...I thought about that, too, later.  The picks in trades DID give us a coach who put us over the top and a great possession receiver.  Hard to say if the Bucs hadn't traded for Key, could they have gotten a FA receiver (or in a draft), would they have won?

I tend to agree with the "trade down to get multiple picks" philosphy or "trade a player to get multiple picks".  I can't see myself trading multiple picks or players for one player unless his name was Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Ladian Thomason (how the heck do you spell it?!).

In the instance of getting Gruden for all those picks, the Glazers had major egg on their face since they had let Tony go, Parcels said no again, the MD coach took his name out of the running, and etc. They HAD to do something like that to save face.

[escobar]

I agree Keyshawn was a piece of the puzzle, but definitely not worth two 1st round picks, and Gruden leading us to a SB is worth many first round picks. But the fact remains that the Glazers mortgaged the future by trading away those picks and crossed their fingers hoping it would be the right move. We won a SB and it turned out to be worth it. The Glazers are mega rich, and save for winning the lottery you don't get that rich by being an idiot. They realize what they gave up for Gruden and what type of situation he walked into and that is why he is still here. They aren't dumb enough to believe it is possible to build a consistent winner with no money or picks and a team with a rapidly aging defense and an inept offense. It takes time to rebuild through the draft and FA and that, up until now, wasn't an option. I truly believe the Glazers see that and no matter what happens this season Gruden will be running the show next year too.

[superbuc]

Rock must be reading these boards (and he got a call this weekend from one of us - who was it?!)....

he asked for calls/opinions on the Bucs and the local media!!!

[1sparkybuc]

The contracts McKay wrote for Keyshawn, Booger, and Rice, strangled this team. The last two were acts of sabotage IMO. He knew Arthur Blank was holding a division rival's GM position vacant for him. Those contracts forced the release of Sapp, Lynch, and Griese. The 5-11 and 4-12 seasons could have turned out much differently. Gruden has had five different starting QBs for the opening game of six seasons here. Belichick and Dungy would have fared no better under those circumstances.

I believe the Bucs will reach the playoffs this season. Big Luke, Garcia, Askew, Boston, Buchanon, Chukwurah, Carter, and June, WILL make an impact on this season, and that's not to mention our rookies. I like our situation and expect success.

[CurtR1995]

No coach can survive 4 losing seasons out of 5. 

If he has a winning record he will stay, if he has a losing record he will go.  It's that simple. 

[Feel Real Good]

What's simply amazing is the fact that you spew out phrases such as "lack of improvement" while failing to offer up the means by which to do so. Judging from a few of these responses one would think that a 9 and a 10 year vet has never provided a shred of help to any team in league history. Get a clue. And if you anti's can't get over Jacquez and Reidel being brought up, fine, leave them out of the argument. That still leaves 11 premium draft picks wasted, in other words an entire starting defensive or offensive unit. First and second round picks are first and second round picks for a reason, they are (supposed to be) more talented than lower round picks. Not having them on your roster obviously means less talent to work with. You can ignore the facts all you want, but Gruden has not been provided with the necessary tools to build a consistent NFL winner up until now. That fact will always remain whether you want it to or not. The fact that you ignore these REASONS shows me that your opinions regarding this team are formed more by hate and resentment than logic.

Do you want to look at who the Patriots, Colts, Eagles, Chargers, etc. picked back then? All teams have their duds but the good ones find GREAT players to offset them and stop making excuses. Do you think Bill Belichick is crying over the Andy Katzenmoyer pick? No, because he went out and got Richard Seymour to make up for it. Are the Chargers crying about Ryan Leaf or Sammy Davis? San Diego lost a better QB than the Bucs have had since Doug Williams yet they kept on winning (Brees). In this same time period the Eagles spent 1st round picks on Jon Harris, Freddie Mitchaell, and Jerome McDougle. When is Gruden going to find some players to make up for it? Marquis Cooper, Michael Clayton, and Chris Colmer aren't going to do it. I bet Steven Jackson, Shawn Andrews, Will Smith, Bob Sanders, Jamaal Brown, DeMarcus Ware, Lofa Tapupu, Frank Gore, Demeco Ryans, or Marcus McNeil would have helped. And the Bucs had free agent money this off-season yet who did they walk away with? Kevin Carter? Cato June? They didn't get anymore of a deal than Derrick Deese or Charlie Garner did. Free agency is overrated. All the really good players get franchised or re-signed and you're left giving Leonard Davis $20 million guaranteed. You HAVE to hit on your draft picks.

[DanTurksGhost]

What do you think about Gru not being on the hotseat?  I'm personally not sure and wondering why the writer has this opinion.

I told everyone on these forums the exact same thing months and months ago.

[alldaway]

Here comes a wall of text. 

I have said it a thousand times that using the power of hindsight is dangerous, and shortsighted, but people on both sides of the fence (especially for this thread) continue to do it.

I bet Steven Jackson

Name a Bucs fan that did not want to to see Jackson drafted *cricket*?  With that said the Bucs FO knew something we all did not know. The Bucs WR core was crumbling before our eyes.  It took a few months to materialize (injuries to JJ, McCardell's holdout) after the draft but it happened.  The Bucs were so desperate for WR help they signed Tim Brown ....enough said.

Shawn Andrews

Andrews is an interior o-lineman who was drafted a lot higher than Davin Joseph.  Imagine the how worse the complaining would have been if the Bucs drafted an interior o-lineman 8 spots higher in the first round?  Enough said.

Will Smith

At the time Rice was playing at a high level.  People would have screamed bloody murder if the Bucs used a first round pick with a strong defense when the offense needed to be addressed.  Hell you can see it right now with how people are acting towards Gaines Adams. Enough said.

Bob Sanders

Drafting a safety high is not a good idea.  Sabby is the highest drafted safety that I can remember and he was drafted at the bottom of the second round (basically third round).  

Jamaal Brown

Been over this a thousand times.  Brown was drafted as a right tackle by New Orleans and most scouts saw him as a RT on the NFL level.  Thanks to the coaching of the current New Orleans staff Brown has been able to make the switch to LT.  If the Bucs drafted a right tackle in the first round people would have been screaming bloody murder.  And lets not forget the Kenyatta Walker fiasco.

DeMarcus Ware

See Will Smith response.

Lofa Tapupu

The Bucs liked Tatupa coming out of USC.  Especially Joe Barry and the rest of the defensive staff.  Problem is Seattle invested a lot of draft picks to trade up and obtain him.  

Frank Gore

The Bucs who need to hit on the draft picks the last few years do not need to be taking on gambles.  Teams stacked with talent can (eg Chargers, Ravens) Gore simply put was a gamble that worked out.

Demeco Ryans

The Derrick Brooks/offensive homers would come out with their pitchforks.  Enough said.

or Marcus McNeil

You put Colmer (3rd round pick) up there as a mistake but then you are suggesting the Bucs take a gamble on McNeil?  Which team drafted McNeil?  Did this team already have a lot of talent?  If so they could they afford the gamble on him?

Free agency is overrated

I disagree.  

Do you want to look at who the Patriots, Colts, Eagles, Chargers, etc. picked back then?

The Eagles track record of first rounders have not exactly been stellar under Andy Reid.  Most of the first rounders that are performing for the Eagles are from another regime...similar to the the Bucs situation as of now.  The Colts have had solid, but not great track record with their first rounders.  The Patriots wheeled and dealed their picks to pick up more picks under BB.  The Chargers who were one of the least talented teams in the NFL slowly built up their talent level after finishing at the bottom multiple years.

Escobar

You can not make the excuse the Bucs lacked picks anymore.  Aftere three full drafts (featuring more than 21 picks in total).  You can no longer point to the lack of picks that this team lacked in the past.

Three full drafts is enough to bring a teams talent level up to at least average.  Anything more than that and those three drafts are considered the boost packs that propel a team to the top of the league.

The 2004 and 2005 draft classes need to show up in 2007.  The 2006 draft class needs to show up in 2008 (preferably sooner) and the 2007 class needs to make its mark in 2009.

Basically I disagree with everyone in this thread (Like always )Reason why?

Both sides of the fence believe the Bucs are lacking talent.  Whether it is missing draft picks (highly misleading considering how long it has been), or not drafting the right players (too early to make that observation...that too is misleading as well).

This team has average level talent at the very least in my opinion as of TODAY(I think they have above average level of talent). If the young players step up (as we have seen with the Chargers and 49ers) then this teams talent level will be more than just average.

With all that said no one has mentioned coaching in this entire thread.  Coaching makes a huge difference with young drafted players.  What is perceived as a team lacking talent in an area (eg safety) in reality coaching does make a difference.

Is it possible that if the Bucs do not see improvement from their young players that they did not draft the right players?  Maybe.

Or

It could be the lack of coaching.  If a new coaching staff comes in and these draft picks start to perform that maybe coaching makes the difference in this league? Maybe, just maybe.

I have NOT been impressed with the Bucs offensive coaching staff.  The fact that no changes have been made on that side of the ball irks me and hangs on top of me like a dark cloud.  Only Art Valero has impressed me somewhat and I already know that Casullo is a very good proven coach.  The rest have a lot to do to convert me.

On the defensive side of the ball we know the Bucs have good coaching.  Whether you are a top pick or an undrafted free agent when they are through with that player they will be able to play football.

Yes you need talent to play in this league but coaching is the difference maker.  That is how Buchanon all of sudden looks better here in Tampa for example.