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Bucs33

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: November 06, 2006, 09:13:04 AM

Ok, maybe not this year.  But for sure next year in my opinion Gruen should get canned if he doesn't go at least 8-8.  This 2006 season will be the 3rd losing season in the last 4 years.  Also the losses this year have been bad look at the last 3 losing season margin of LOSS...


2003 = 7.2
2004 = 7.3
2006 = 12.3

Oh, and for the 2005 season, yes it was a great thrillridden season but how many games could we have lost?

Game 1 @ Minnesota - Daunte red zone INT saved the game for us
Game 3 @ Green bay - Longwell missed a FG and EXTRA point in a 1 point win for tampa
Game 4 vs. lions - we need a both review to win the game at the last second which could have gone detroit's way

Game 9 vs. Washington - Alstott 2 point conversion that ended in contraversy (THRILLING game none the less)

Game 10 @ ATL  - a Vick last second fumble lead to the bucs win
Game 15 vs. ATL - we have to black a Field Goal to win the game in OT

That is SIX wins that easily could have gone the other way. Not to mention beating up on a messed up Saints team two times last year.  The point is NOT that we found a way to win but at 11-5, it was not reflective of what the team was.

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Ok, back to the Gruden getting fired arguement.  Look at the draft, while Carnell was a decent pick (and i am big fan of Ruud and Alex Smith), look at the majority of his draft picks since 2002

Marquise Walker - how's working at McDonalds?
Travis Stephens - 1 catch fo 6 yards - NICE NFL career
Tim Wansley - just look backa t the 2003 game vs. Indy
Tracey Wistrom - would be great if the NFL was the NCAA
Aaron lockett - Who?  I won't be too pissed he was a 7th rounder

Next year 2003
DeWayne White - Ok, so-so player but a 2n rounder?
Simms - last pick in the 3rd - moreso fell into our laps
Lance Nimmo - still trying to find Nimmo
Sean Mahan - at least he started...
Torrie Cox - did he get anotehr DUI yet?

2004 picks

Clayton - it is like he sold his soul to the devil for one great season
Marquis Cooper - unlike his ears he did not come up big
Will Allen - watch yesterday's game vs. New Orleans
Jeb Terry - put Jeb Bush in why don't you?
Nate Lawrie - He went to Yale so he sould ahve something to fall back on
Mark Jones - Ok he played for a bit
Lenny Williams - who?  I'd rather have LennY Dykstra
Casey Cramer - How is it going in Carolina?

2005
Carnell - tough to get a good pick when you pick #5
Ruud _ I like him
Alex Smith - other than the check down passes every 3rd play i like him
Chris Colmer - huh?
Dan Buenning - recently got bench, i like him a lot, I had a history class with him at U. of Wisconsin...
Donte Nicholson - more like donte's inferno
Larry Brackins - Pearl river Community college was proud for about 15 minutes
JR Russell - Have a good one with that
Razzano - Razz-manian devil is better on roids
Paris Warren - rather have Paris Hilton, he ever going to play?  A poor Man's Alvin harper

2006
is too early for me to bang on...

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Is that enough evidence?  I truly believe Gruden's biggest asset that he brought is that he is a great salesman to recruit veterans (look at the 2002 season - Pittman, Jurevicius, Roman Oben, Dilger, and his Oakland track record Rison, Rice, Garner, Gannon etc...) for the short term.  But the team has not reacted to him nearly as much since 2002.  He is not bulding from the ground up in my opinion which was the basis of the 2002 super bowl team....

Also I think Dungy could have won every game in 2002 with the exception of the title game vs. Philly and the super bowl (Gruden did beat Dungy head to head in 1999 45-0)

Look at the QB's we beat in 2002
Randy Fasani                   Rodney Peete              Kurt Warner (he was not what he was in 99,00,01)       
Akili Smith                        Chris Redman                   
Tim Couch                        Mike McMahon
Henry Burris                    Doug Johnson for 90% of the first ATlanta game

While the 2002 SEASON will alwasy bring un-messeaureable happiness (nothing like a marriage or a child birth), I just look back at what the WHOLE seasonw as Not just the OUTSTANDING playoff run...

Are you convinced yet?  Just because you wake up at 3:17 in the morning, have a great marketing persona linked to a doll, 2-3 books out and a lot of "intensity"  doesn't equal results and it doesn't equal more importantly WINS....

naplesbuc

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#1 : November 06, 2006, 09:14:49 AM

If the Bucs embarass themselves like they did yesterday 8 more times than he indeed could be fired.  If they show improvement on offense and stay in most of the games then he will get one more season to get this turned around.

mjs020294

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#2 : November 06, 2006, 09:16:17 AM

great post Bucs33.  You should add the points difference from the last three season to your breakdown, that tells a story as well.


DanTurksGhost

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#3 : November 06, 2006, 09:17:31 AM

Some of the above draft picks belong to McKay and his boys, not Gruden. Marquise Walker? Gruden was begging for Brian Westbrook, but McKay ignored his pleas and took Walker instead.

Bucs33

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#4 : November 06, 2006, 09:20:36 AM

DanTurksghost, I fully agree with you about the westbrook story, None the less Walker was under gruden's watch...

BucsGuru

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#5 : November 06, 2006, 09:24:13 AM

33, excellent post.  Now watch the list of excuses why we should give him just ONE MORE YEAR?  How many one more year seasons are we going to have?  My favorite excuse I hear people say is, "the guy works 20 hours a week.  There is no one else in the league that works harder."  Most people who have been coaching as long as he has should not have to work that many hours to get results.  It's not quantity of hours, it's quality of hours.  What's he doing all that time?  Going over the same offense he's used for the last five years?  Maybe going home more would do the guy some good?! 

DanTurksGhost

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#6 : November 06, 2006, 09:24:45 AM

DanTurksghost, I fully agree with you about the westbrook story, None the less Walker was under gruden's watch...

I can't blame him for something over which he had no control. McKay felt his personnel staff were better at evaluating players than the coaching staff and therefore he put very little stock into a coach's wants. Knowing that to be the case, I cannot fault him for players acquired (or worse, not acquired that should have been) under McKay.

BucsGuru

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#7 : November 06, 2006, 09:26:54 AM

How many people are we going to blame for Gruden not being successful?  Now it's McKay's fault!  Next week it will be Dungy.  Then it's the aliens living under the stadium?  How can this be???

alldaway

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#8 : November 06, 2006, 09:27:18 AM

If the Bucs embarass themselves like they did yesterday 8 more times than he indeed could be fired.  If they show improvement on offense and stay in most of the games then he will get one more season to get this turned around.


I agree.

DanTurksGhost

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#9 : November 06, 2006, 09:34:45 AM

We only know that because Gruden has, in retrospect claimed so.

Not so. Knowing how McKay handled personnel selection and knowing some of those involved at the time, I can tell you that passing on Westbrook in favor of Walker was a huge bone of contention between the coach and the GM. Check with the PR guys, if you need independent verification.

McKay did not like being overruled by Wyche on personnel matters and once he seized control of them he no longer allowed any coach to dictate to him which players would be acquired. These are simply the facts.

Bucs33

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#10 : November 06, 2006, 09:36:44 AM

I honetly wouldn't mind seeing Gruden go after the year, but I can somewhat understand an argument for keeping for one more season.

One other thing, did you hear how loud the crowd got after the first big Galloway first down?  After seeing Sunday night's game with colts/pats that play is ROUTINE for them...  unreal for an offensive "GENIUS"

DanTurksGhost

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#11 : November 06, 2006, 09:37:03 AM

How many people are we going to blame for Gruden not being successful?  Now it's McKay's fault!

Don't be silly. But I refuse to attribute bad personnel decisions to Gruden when I know for a flat-out fact that those decisions were not his. Once McKay was gone, however, Gruden receives full attribution for his personnel mistakes.

BucsGuru

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#12 : November 06, 2006, 09:37:32 AM

So are you saying that McKay did a bad job here in Tampa?  Well, I think he played a big part in making Tampa a winner.  Gruden, since in control, hasn't produced that well. 

keeponbucn

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#13 : November 06, 2006, 09:38:39 AM

unreal for an offensive "GENIUS"


c-ya, don't come back. You've lost all the momentum built by the first post of this thread.

Bucs33

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#14 : November 06, 2006, 09:42:11 AM

Don't come back?  What the hell did I do?  Oh, and having a Ray Lewis pastey added so much, why would you even take the time do that?  I don't care if Ray is gay, cross-dresser,  a bi-sexual, or a murderer, the Ravens are 6-2 and we are the opposite
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