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DanTurksGhost

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#15 : November 06, 2006, 09:44:41 AM

So are you saying that McKay did a bad job here in Tampa?  Well, I think he played a big part in making Tampa a winner.  Gruden, since in control, hasn't produced that well. 

He had a role. However, he didn't contribute as much as people like to give him credit for. He didn't draft Sapp, Brooks or Lynch even though people try to give him credit for it after the fact, and he didn't hire the HC who was the key addition to winning this team it's first-ever SB championship. His attempt to force the hiring of Lewis completely against the directives of the ownership was illustrative of his method of operation.

His track record with personnel in the time he assumed full control of that area of the operation in 1997 is pretty sub-par.

However, I can say that McKay's local image was well-crafted for the media and fans.

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#16 : November 06, 2006, 09:48:59 AM

Some of the above draft picks belong to McKay and his boys, not Gruden. Marquise Walker? Gruden was begging for Brian Westbrook, but McKay ignored his pleas and took Walker instead.

We only know that because Gruden has, in retrospect claimed so. We've also heard he wanted Dom Davis when Simms looked awful, then he "stood on a table" for Simms when he looked good. Now he wanted Davis again now that Simms is bad.

LOL as a coach he may be good, as a person not so much.

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Gruden: Simms is gonna be a helluva quaterback- unless I screw it up.

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#17 : November 06, 2006, 10:22:12 AM

Don't come back?  What the hell did I do?  Oh, and having a Ray Lewis pastey added so much, why would you even take the time do that?  I don't care if Ray is gay, cross-dresser,  a bi-sexual, or a murderer, the Ravens are 6-2 and we are the opposite

The problem is that the whole "offensive genuis" complaint is a total strawman.  The ONLY people who use that phrase use it to bash Gruden.  I seriously can't remember the last time someone used it sincerely.

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#18 : November 06, 2006, 10:25:23 AM

I was referring to Gruden as an offensive "Genius" in sarcasism,  Not dungy or the pats coach,

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#19 : November 06, 2006, 10:32:54 AM

I  agree somewhat about the draft, but  2005 was the first time Gruden had a full complement of draft picks in every round. A lot of those players you mentioned that didn't pan out from previous drafts were 2nd day picks, which are expected not to pan out more often than not. It's those 1st day picks, especially 1st and 2nd rd picks that you expect to contribute and make an impact.

Lets take a look at those 1st day picks again:


2002: 1st rd: no pick
          2nd rd: no pick
          3rd rd: Marquise Walker: as has been stated, a McKay choice not Gruden. McKay had the power, Gruden hadn't won the SB to win over the Glazers yet.

2003: 1st rd: no pick
           2nd rd: Dewayne White: This guy is considered by many to be the future of the Bucs dline. While not a starter he has been a playmaker when he sees the field. he made plays to win some of those close game in 2005.
           3rd rd: Chris Simms: Another Mckay pick. He played good enough to go 5-1 in the South last year, even though he looked like crap this year.

2004: 1st rd: Michael Clayton: Had outstanding rookie year, could have been ROY if not for Big Ben. Injuires slowed him in '05, has no excuse this year, looks better than 2005, but still not like 2004. But the whole offense is not exactly clicking right now either
          2nd rd: no pick
          3rd rd: Marquise Cooper: dude was a bust no doubt.

2005:  1st rd: Carnell Williams: guy was the ROY in 2005. Still probably the most talented player on offense
           2nd rd: Barrett Ruud: considered the future MLB and is getting playing time now with Q banged up
           3rd rd: Alex Smith:  I think everyone likes this guy. He has the potential to be a star IMO
           3rd rd: Chris Colmer: a risky pick considering his health concerns. Though he was supposed to be over his illness. Still, a bad pick in hindsight

2006:  1st rd: Davin Joseph: starting RG on the team now. Still needs polishing, but he looks like our answer at RG for years
           2nd rd: Jeremy Trueblood: starting RT on the team now. Needs work Doesn't look as good as DJ, but has surprised me with his play since replacing Yatta.
           3rd rd: Maurice Stovall: who knows at this point

Really as was stated, you can't judge the 2006 draft yet, or really even 2005, I've even seen some people say you can't judge a draft until 5 years afterwards.

And go take a look at the last 2 drafts before Gruden arrived, not that great....

On a final note, It seems cliche to bring up the lost draft picks, but they really do make an impact. Since Gruden has been in Tampa he has been without 2 #1 picks and 2 #2 picks, not to mention the  #1 and #2 picks that the Bucs didn't have before Gruden dating back to 2000, and also you can add the #1 they didn't have in 1998. That's 7 1st and 2nd rd picks that the bucs are missing. That's 7 guys that could be entering their prime or in their prime contributing on the team right now. That cannot be overlooked. McKay as well as the Glazers mortaged the future (which is now) to win a SB.

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#20 : November 06, 2006, 10:36:28 AM

I was referring to Gruden as an offensive "Genius" in sarcasism,  Not dungy or the pats coach,

Yes, I know you were using it sarcastically.  The point is, it's been such a long time since anyone used it in any fasion that *wasn't* sarcastic, it's lost any sort of sting it may once have had and become very, very tired.  To a non-trivial extent, it's become an easy way of identifying someone more interested in bashing than having a conversation.  That may very well be unfair to you, but I can very much understand where keeponbucn was inclined to just tune you out when you said it.



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#21 : November 06, 2006, 04:07:35 PM

Is that enough evidence?

Was there evidence in there somewhere?


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#22 : November 06, 2006, 05:47:00 PM

After seeing that game yesterday, how can anyone seriously think that the fans can tolerate another year of this?  6 straight 3 and outs?  What the heck is that?  This was the Saints for crying out loud.  Fan were flying out of the stadium early in the 4th quarter.  I guess that was good since I was able to drive home after the game without a rush, if that is a positive.

The real moment: The Saints kneeled down at the 5.  The freaking Saints showed pity on us.  How humiliating is that?  Our team is now in such shambles that a franchise like the Saints feels the need to have mercy on us? 

The fact is that either this team is full of talent and is poorly coached, or there is no talent at all, and the team is poorly coached.  The Saints started two rookie 7th round draft picks on offense and killed us.  Where they great finds, or are they coached up by a superior coaching staff?  Their 7th round tackle outplayed our 2nd round tackle by a wide margin.  Our WR has more carries then our legendary FB.  Something is very, very, very wrong with the leadership on this team. 

Either way, we MUST get rid of the entire FO and bring in a real GM and personnel man to replace Allen, who is killing this team. 

Gruden needs to bring in a real OC so he can focus on the overall team, as we can not come out flat game after game after game.  Which team looked like they were lead by a Super Bowl coach, and which team looked like they were lead by a rookie HC? 

If the team plays like it did on Sunday the rest of the year, some big names will lose their jobs, you can count on that.  The Glazers like Gruden, and are a hands off ownership.  But they know money, and Gruden and Allen will test that season ticket waiting list big time, and that will mean changes. 

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#23 : November 06, 2006, 06:30:15 PM

Ok, maybe not this year.  But for sure next year in my opinion Gruen should get canned if he doesn't go at least 8-8. 
Once again this is the wrong way to look at it. What SHOULD happen to Gruden is not the issue. We are not a jury for the trial of Gruden. We are Bucs fans and the question is what is the best way to have a winning team in the long term. 

Let God punish Gruden. If sometime in the future replacing Gruden is the best thing for the team going forward, if we are headed in the wrong direction, then we need to find somebody better to get us back in the right direction.  But that means getting rid of the whole crew from top to bottom including Allen and Kiffin and getting in a new crew who can work together with one philosophy.

I don't see that right now. I see that we suck.  I see that we are losing.  I see that Gruden along with many players have made mistakes.  I think we are heading in the right direction in the long term perspective.   You have rookies on offense who have started about three games.  They suck right now. What did you expect?

Anyway the point is that demanding that Gruden walk the plank as punishment for his crimes is not the attitude to take to make our team better.  Be mad at Gruden all you want.  Get onto the Big Dog show and rant and rave about Gruden all you want.  But be careful when you call for his head.  Think objectively about the ramifications of that to this team in the long run. 



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#24 : November 06, 2006, 06:39:29 PM

Everyone who wants Gruden fired ask yourself this- Who will be available that is better than Gruden?? Nobody that I know of, let's wait for the season to unfold before we call for his head. If this team doesn't show any heart or any signs of turning it around fire him, but let's give the guy a shot. I'm as frustrated as the next Buc fan but there isn't a better option out there right now.


DanTurksGhost

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#25 : November 06, 2006, 07:04:57 PM

After seeing that game yesterday...

Idiocy.

I sliced your quote to spare the other forum members.

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#26 : November 06, 2006, 08:35:45 PM

Anyone who can look objectively at football would have said that the Saints were two things away from being not only competent, but competitive: 1) A real coach, 2) A real QB.

This whole "we lost to the freaking Saints" argument does not have the bite you'd expect.  Remember when people were mad that "we lost to the freaking Ravens" after week 1?  7 weeks later, they're leading their division, kind of like those freaking Saints.

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#27 : November 06, 2006, 09:14:20 PM

Good post.  Everyone can argue about the Dungy/McKay and Allen/Gruden eras all they want.  Records speak for themselves.

I don't think any of us care if Richard Simmons is HC & QB in pink tights, as long as we get some damn wins (OK, maybe we do care about the pink tights).

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#28 : November 07, 2006, 10:41:32 AM

Everyone who wants Gruden fired ask yourself this- Who will be available that is better than Gruden?? Nobody that I know of, let's wait for the season to unfold before we call for his head. If this team doesn't show any heart or any signs of turning it around fire him, but let's give the guy a shot. I'm as frustrated as the next Buc fan but there isn't a better option out there right now.

I can think of one T, Ron Rivera.  He is Lovie Smiths defensive cooridinator up in Chicago.  He is a Tampa 2 guy and would bring Discipline back to this team.  Hopefully Monte would stay and Ron could bring in a new offensive staff to work with the young guys while our defense gets rebuilt.

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#29 : November 07, 2006, 11:10:14 AM

Everyone who wants Gruden fired ask yourself this- Who will be available that is better than Gruden?? Nobody that I know of, let's wait for the season to unfold before we call for his head. If this team doesn't show any heart or any signs of turning it around fire him, but let's give the guy a shot. I'm as frustrated as the next Buc fan but there isn't a better option out there right now.

I can think of one T, Ron Rivera.  He is Lovie Smiths defensive cooridinator up in Chicago.  He is a Tampa 2 guy and would bring Discipline back to this team.  Hopefully Monte would stay and Ron could bring in a new offensive staff to work with the young guys while our defense gets rebuilt.

The other Ron would work as well (Ron Turner offensive coordinator).
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